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Podfic Thoughts...
I want to take a moment to talk about podfic (are you guys surprised?). Obviously, I'm a little obsessed with it; I love it to pieces. I know it hasn't caught on for a lot of fandoms and it's not every one's thing and that's ok. I'm not going to try and make anyone like it who doesn't.
But, the thing is, I've stumbled across quite a few conversations lately (mostly on LJ and Twitter) where people have been talking about why they don't like podfic. And, again, if you don't like podfic, you don't like podfic, I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. However one of the reasons I keep seeing cited for not liking podfic is that they can read the fic faster in their heads than the podficer reads out loud.
Which is totally true, however it misses the point of podfic, and that's what I want to talk about. Because, I can read the lyrics of a song much faster (and sometimes with greater understanding) than I can listen to the song. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop listening to music. While the lyrics of a song are really important, they're only one part of a whole.
And the story is a much larger percentage of the whole of a podfic than the lyrics are of a song but my point is that listening to a podfic is a different experience than just reading a fic. Or, at least, as a podficer I hope that my readers are getting more than that. Podfic isn't just a format shift, it's not just an accessibility issue. If it were, you could just use a screen reader and be done with it, it would certainly be a lot less work.
And I get that if you're just sitting there listening to podfic, as you would sit to read, it can seem slow. But I would suggest to people who feel that way, to maybe try listening to it in other ways before giving up on it. Instead of just sitting there, do something while listening. Like knitting, data entry (god, podfic saved my life when I did data entry full time), cooking, cleaning or exercising. One of the biggest appeals of podfic, to me personally, is that it allows me to consume fanfic at times when I can't read.
And, you know, some people appreciate that podfic is slower. I've seen more than one person comment (myself included) that when listening at a slower pace, they pick up the nuances of a story that they missed as they sped through the text.
I guess I just want people to realize that podfic isn't an alternative to fic, it's something very different from it. So yeah, don't feel obligated to like podfic just because you like fic, but please, don't compare the two like they're the same thing either.
But, the thing is, I've stumbled across quite a few conversations lately (mostly on LJ and Twitter) where people have been talking about why they don't like podfic. And, again, if you don't like podfic, you don't like podfic, I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise. However one of the reasons I keep seeing cited for not liking podfic is that they can read the fic faster in their heads than the podficer reads out loud.
Which is totally true, however it misses the point of podfic, and that's what I want to talk about. Because, I can read the lyrics of a song much faster (and sometimes with greater understanding) than I can listen to the song. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop listening to music. While the lyrics of a song are really important, they're only one part of a whole.
And the story is a much larger percentage of the whole of a podfic than the lyrics are of a song but my point is that listening to a podfic is a different experience than just reading a fic. Or, at least, as a podficer I hope that my readers are getting more than that. Podfic isn't just a format shift, it's not just an accessibility issue. If it were, you could just use a screen reader and be done with it, it would certainly be a lot less work.
And I get that if you're just sitting there listening to podfic, as you would sit to read, it can seem slow. But I would suggest to people who feel that way, to maybe try listening to it in other ways before giving up on it. Instead of just sitting there, do something while listening. Like knitting, data entry (god, podfic saved my life when I did data entry full time), cooking, cleaning or exercising. One of the biggest appeals of podfic, to me personally, is that it allows me to consume fanfic at times when I can't read.
And, you know, some people appreciate that podfic is slower. I've seen more than one person comment (myself included) that when listening at a slower pace, they pick up the nuances of a story that they missed as they sped through the text.
I guess I just want people to realize that podfic isn't an alternative to fic, it's something very different from it. So yeah, don't feel obligated to like podfic just because you like fic, but please, don't compare the two like they're the same thing either.
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One of the biggest appeals of podfic, to me personally, is that it allows me to consume fanfic at times when I can't read.
I agree 100%. Honestly, if I have some free time and want to spend it with fanfic, I will always chose reading over listening to podfic. But I love the fact that I can listen to fanfic during my commute (being stuck in traffic has really gained appeal since I started listening to podfic, lol), while doing house chores, or cooking dinner.
I used to not like podfic, but it wasn't because I thought it was was "slower," but because the couple podfics I tried listening to in my fandom sounded so different (and by extension, "wrong") than they did in my head when I read those stories in print/on screen. However then I listened to some podfics in fandoms I hadn't read anything in before, and that solved the problem, since I wasn't coming to a podfic with preconceived notion of how the story was "supposed" to sound.
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However, I think everyone has their own approach to podfic. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just, if one doesn't work for you (general you) try another.
Although, I'm always surprised when people admit they can't multitask enough to listen to podfic and do other things. Because I multitask like whoa when I listen (I listen at work, when I'm doing searches and reading descriptions and, occasionally, when I'm writing emails).
However then I listened to some podfics in fandoms I hadn't read anything in before, and that solved the problem, since I wasn't coming to a podfic with preconceived notion of how the story was "supposed" to sound.
I've only strongly experienced that feeling of "wrongness" once. I've listened to podfics of stories I've read before and it's never really been a problem, it wasn't until I hit a fic that I had planned on podficing that it hit me. Because I had taken the time to plan out in my head how it should sound and then someone else read it, someone with a really different style from me, and it was a bit like a smack in the head. I've listened to the podfic enough now that I love it, but it was kind of startling when it first happened.
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Heck, I can't even singletask listening to podfic.
(I'm an ADDer - and while listening to music helps me get other stuff done, I can't do most things while trying to listen to talk radio. Podfic is even worse: I end up listening to 30 seconds, rewinding the last 10, listening to that again plus another 15 seconds, rewinding the last 10...
Basically, I have to have a visual component to anything I'm listening to. Otherwise it just fades into the background, and I can't keep track of what I'm listening to - and I'm so distracted by trying that I can't do anything else I'm doing at the same time.)
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It's just, I multitask when doing most things, I can't imagine not being able to do so (at least not with my current coping mechanisms).
Also, I think it's pretty awesome that you still listen to podfic even though it's such an intensive thing for you. Hearing things like this always make me strive to make my own podfic better, so they're actually worth the effort some people put into listening to them :)
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I find that a really fascinating statement. What's different about one that makes you love it but hate the other? (I do realize that there are very large differences between the two, and actually I have the opposite feelings but I'm still curious about what makes the difference to you.)
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But, then again, I listen to podfic while doing other things and I find audioplays too overwhelming for that. I just can't follow it while doing other things (sometimes even if I'm not doing other things, I find it hard to follow voices without the dialogue tag telling me who just spoke). So it makes sense that that's why you enjoy them.
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My comparison wasn't about podfic vs. fanfic, but about the fact that in my life, I don't have much time for rereads, and if I'm reading a fic for the first time, I'd like to do it in my own pace. That's all.
Sorry if it came across wrong. It certainly wasn't the intention.
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I'll be honest, I did read your post before posting this, however you weren't really the reason for it. A small part of it, maybe, but a really small part of it. I actually really respect your stance on podfic. It's not for you, however you still promote it and have made it clear that people are welcome to podfic your stuff and that you think it's awesome. A+ from me. :)
Like I said in this post, I don't want to make people like podfic if they don't. It's just... so often when I see people who don't like podfic talk about it, they make it sound like this hugely unnatural thing that is squicky and kind of wrong. The speed of the reading generally seems to be added on as a "and I can read faster than I can listen, so why would I bother listening" kind of thing to round off their argument. I guess it's easier for me to address the pace part of the argument than talk about the squick aspect (again).
And I don't think people are really talking about it in a "fanfic is awesome, podfic is not" way either, it's more... the way they talk about them, it's like they're holding them to the same standards and set of expectations. Like "this is what I like if fic, so I'll look for those things in podfic" when really it's like comparing apples to oranges, they're both fruit but they're different fruit with different things going for them. There's a whole new set of standards that should be used when looking at podfic and I just don't think a lot of people realize that. It would be like comparing fic and vids. I can made a vid based on a fic (in fact, I have done that) but it's not like they're the same thing, not by a long shot.
So yeah, sorry for making you feel awkward but this post wasn't really in response to you, so you really don't need feel awkward :)
In a slightly related note, I meant to leave a comment to your post and got distracted, so while we're talking...
In your post you mentioned that you added a podfic page to your website and made that funky stats page for us. Which is really cool, however you might want to let the podficers know that it's there so your effort isn't wasted. I probably never would have seen it if it weren't for the fact that someone told me about your post, when I wondered why there was a sudden influx of authors to add to my blanket permission list (thanks for the shout out, btw!). Not only because stats are important but also just so podficers know where their works are being archived. I know I sometimes (think) about going back and remastering old podfic and you'd want to have the newest and best version on your webpage. Also, there are some serious privacy issues with podfic that could come into play one day (I haven't seen it happen yet thankfully *knocks on wood*). Just a suggestion :)
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I'll freely admit that I'm not very familiar with podfic etiquette, but in my experience, podfic readers don't ask the authors where they can archive the work, and I tend to assume that they would know about my website if they want to read my work at all, so I've never felt the need (after the first one anyhow) to specifically inform them that I'm archiving a copy. It just seems the natural thing to do - it's basically the same as them posting it to the podfic archive, right? No one ever asked me about that - or it would have occurred to me to reciprocate.
I don't know what you mean by privacy issues, but as someone who keeps her work in very specific places (easy to remove and completely in my control) I had to battle with my own issues when it comes to letting recordings of my fic float around. But it's an awesome thing that people want to record and listen to them, so I told myself to just deal with it, you know? It's basically a collaboration - even if you don't exactly work together - and that's all about compromise in the end.
So. Thanks for the suggestion. I guess I'll update my blanket permission to include these details and email podficcers about it. I certainly wouldn't want to offend anyone.
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It's not that you've offended anyone (or, at least you haven't offended me). It just... seems like a good idea. Thank you for letting them know! I know I appreciate it a lot.
Since podfic isn't your thing, I'm not sure if the rest of this comment will be interesting to you, however I think there's a disconnect in how we approach podfic, so I thought I'd try and explain it from the podficer's side.
I think you're thinking about podfic as an extension of fic (correct me if I'm wrong) but I consider it a new creation based on a fic. So ownership of the podfic belongs to the podficer. When you give permission to someone to podfic something, you're giving them permission to transform your fic into something new and separate from your fic. So, just as you have complete control over where your creation, the fic in it's text format, is being hosted, so too, does the podficer have control over what happens to their creation, the podfic.
So when you say "in my experience, podfic readers don't ask the authors where they can archive the work" with the implication that you then shouldn't have to ask permission to archive their podfic, you're kind of mixing metaphors. It's like, I don't assume that since you've given me permission to podfic your work, I can then start hosting the text version of it (I link back to your webpage, sure, but don't have the actual text version available on my website or journal).
And actually, you've already given podficers the permission to archive your work, in a different format. It's implicit in the permission to podfic. I can't create a podfic and not host it somewhere (at least if I intend to share it, and if I don't intend to share it, I think it's kind of silly to ask permission in the first place). So when you give permission for people to podfic your works, unless you say otherwise, you're also giving them permission to host it by the very nature of podfic.
However there isn't a reciprocal side to that. In order for me to make a podfic, there's no need for you to host it. The onus for that is on the podficer, unless some further discussion has happened.
And, as part of your blanket permission statement, you tell podficers that they need to inform you of any podfics they're putting out there, so you know that there are other copies out there. All I'm saying is that the podficers who have podficed your works would appreciate that same courtesy. As it stands, if you want something to happen to your fic, which will affect the podfic, you know you can contact the podficer and they can deal with the various places they've posted their podfic. However, as a podficer, unless you let me know you have a copy of my podfic out there for the public, if I want to make any sort of change to my podfic, I'll likely miss your copy.
And in the end, I'm not actually saying you shouldn't archive it, just that most podficers aren't going to assume you are (of the 22 podfics I've made, by fics from 20 different authors, you're the only one who's personally hosted the podfic, so it's not a normal thing). I'm not even saying that I think you should ask; personally, I think it'd be pretty hypocritical for a podficer to object to your hosting it. But all the reasons out there that people have for not archiving without the creator knowing, apply to podfic too. Like I said, it was kind of a fluke that I found out that you were hosting this at all, others might not know either (I found your fics through direct links to the fics, so had never poked around the rest of your site). And, again, it's not that I'm upset or anything that you're doing this, just that, one, you put that effort into giving us a stats site that would have been wasted and two, one day it might be important for me to know where all my podfics are and it might be bad if I missed the copy you have.
These things tend to trickle down, not up, so my changing things about my podfic, doesn't affect your fic, as your changing your fic would affect my podfic so there would be no specific reason for me to let you know if I made a change to my podfic, there's a high chance it wouldn't even occur to me to tell you of the changes (and, actually, I don't really expect you to go out of your way to tell me if you change something in your fic, so even that isn't necessarily a one way thing).
I don't know what you mean by privacy issues
Well, the privacy issue is that with podfic you're putting your voice out there. I mean, if something happened in RL and you wanted to hide your fannish works, it's a lot easier to deny writing that porn over there than it is to say, actually, no that isn't your voice on that recording, reading porn for the internet (which, I know most fic isn't all porn, however that's generally the part that gets people in trouble).
I'm not sure what country you live in, but different countries have different laws. For example, in my country most high school fic is illegal (for the underag sex). It's not a law that is enforced very often so mostly I ignore it but one of the fics on my to-podfic list is a high school AU. As it is now, it's legal, but it's a WIP so that could change. I'm still going to record it but if the climate in my country changes and this law is enforced more, I'd probably have to take the podfic down because, while I love fandom in general and am in no way ashamed of what I do, I don't want to go to jail for it either. Being a podficer makes it that much easier to get caught.
Anyway, podfic is this whole new field and people are still trying to figure things out about it. If you're interested in hearing more here are some interesting conversations elsewhere about this stuff:
Untitled Post
Author Control (After Initial Permission)
from me, zvi
Podficcing and privacy concerns?
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It is a new creation, and I do agree that the reader has a right to archive it wherever. But! It is still based very heavily on my creation - as in, my words, my imagination - and so I assumed I'd have the same right to it.
Which I assumed wrong, I guess.
However there isn't a reciprocal side to that. In order for me to make a podfic, there's no need for you to host it. The onus for that is on the podficer, unless some further discussion has happened.
Wow. This is... I don't even have words for how odd I find this. Though, again, I suppose you're right and I never thought about it.
I'm having mixed feelings about the whole thing now - because like I said, I don't like giving up control over my own work, and from what you're saying, the readers don't think of podfics as a collaboration, which just proves that I shouldn't assume things.
I'm either going to have to alter my blanket permission drastically or just tell people to ask first to prevent misunderstandings like this.
Thank you for taking the time to explain things to me. I really appreciate it.
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Anyway, I want to reply to this in more detail, however I'm at work now with a full day ahead of me and I'm going away for the weekend. So that reply might not come until Sunday/Monday night. I just don't want you to think I'm ignoring you! I just need some time!
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It's always a shock to realize you got something wrong. It's okay though. I'm probably going to add a couple of new conditions to my blanket permission for future podfics and be more clear about my boundaries from now on. Better for everyone involved.
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I guess first off, I'd like to say that I don't think at any point you were actually "wrong", nor would I say I'm "right". Podfic is the new thing and so many of us are feeling our way around in the dark. My whole reason in bringing this up, wasn't to make you feel like you made a mistake, simply to point out that you had made a set of assumptions, and that they conflicted with my set of assumptions. I think my comment came off as "mine! Don't touch!" which... Podficers are in this vulnerable place and I think I was getting defensive and you picked up on that. So, I'm sorry for that.
"However there isn't a reciprocal side to that. In order for me to make a podfic, there's no need for you to host it. The onus for that is on the podficer, unless some further discussion has happened."
Wow. This is... I don't even have words for how odd I find this. Though, again, I suppose you're right and I never thought about it.
I think it might help if you knew a bit of where I'm coming from and what other authors are doing with podfic. I just made a post about it. But the just of it is, most authors don't do more than acknowledge that a podfic has been made of their works. So as a podficer, we come to expect that. That, combined with the fact that so many people these days simply don't have websites, it's just not something that comes up when talking podfic with authors. So no podficer is going to assume that the author is going to host their podfic. I don't think many of us will mind if you want to, it's just not an assumption that we'll make.
And because so many authors don't take those steps, or get very involved in the podfics made of their fics, podficers might not think to mention anything to the author if they change something about a podfic. Ok, and now, I think I'm getting repetitive. There's only one more thing I want to talk about (I hope you don't mind me quoting from the DM you sent me, let me know if you do and I'll edit this comment).
I recently realized that I should’ve caught up with podfic meta and etiquette before I made assumptions about what that meant.
I think you're being pretty hard on yourself there. Because you've freely admitted that podfic isn't your thing. And really, there's only so many hours in a day (and we like it when you spend them writing :). It's totally understandable that you went and made assumptions and that you don't spend a ton of time reading up on etiquette for a part of fandom you're only tangentially taking part in.
But I am part of that community and one of the works in question was one of mine, so when I saw the opportunity to talk about it, I took it. Because although it can be hard to have this kind of conversation, it's much better to have it now then later in an emergency or, god, during wank :S (Side note, this post got
In other, happy news, there's going to be new podfic posted soon of one of your fics. The podficer sent me a copy of it today (and I told her about the changes you're making to your blanket permission) but I'm sure you'll be hearing from her soon (if you haven't already). :D
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I don't like being wrong about things I care about. Now, I may not be a podfic person, but I care about respecting creators' rights in fandom. So I should have put more thought into it.
That said, I think it should be okay now. Like you said in your new post, it is (apparently) a gray area with no clear boundaries, so I did my best to draw them for myself this time around.
By the way, you're the only one who hasn't replied to my PM yet. It really is okay if you don't want me to host it. I can link to your post instead. Just let me know.
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That's fair, and hey, you feel how you feel. I guess I just didn't want you to feel that I was, I don't know, judging you or like, secretly hating you and thinking you were thoughtless or something over all this. :) Because, personally, that's always my first reaction and it's good to know that's not the case (even though it's rarely the case).
By the way, you're the only one who hasn't replied to my PM yet. It really is okay if you don't want me to host it. I can link to your post instead. Just let me know.
Oh! In my head, I had said here that I was ok with you hosting it, so I was actually surprised that you had sent me the PM. But, I guess I haven't really come out and stated it plainly, so yes, it's ok with me if you want to host the podfic (do you want me to repy to the DM? Or will this be ok?).
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And this is cool, no need to reply to the PM. Thank you.
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I actually almost just sent you a recording of my talking through this with my room mates, at one point. I never realized what a verbal person I was until I started doing my meta that way. But now my obsession with podfic is making a lot more sense :P
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I'm a writer, and I'm also a podficcer. When it comes to controlling my own creations, yes, I'd expect to be consulted if somebody wanted to archive one of my stories somewhere, but I wouldn't lose my shit if someone had added my story to an archive somewhere so long as it was credited to me. I'd be kind of pissed, but I wouldn't be WORRIED in the way that I would if somebody cheerfully uploaded one of my podfics to somewhere without my permission. Because, yes, there's one hell of a lot more plausible deniability involved in saying "nope, nope, Pandarus? That's not my name, I don't know WHAT you're talking about! Me, write porn? No siree bob!" than there is about somebody listening to what is quite clearly my voice performing a podfic.
We make ourselves vulnerable in a new way, by doing this. And we aren't taking anything FROM the writer - we always credit the writer, and link to the source text, just as with a short written rec. If anything, we're increasing the number of people who will encounter your story, and recognise your name, and know what you wrote.
I know that some [expletive deleted] person has taken the liberty of uploading various of my podfics to Last.fm. When I first discovered that, I had a bit of a panic attack. I know that the most sensible thing would be to not make podfics, if I want to be sure that this isn't going to come and bite me in the ass, but I love this medium, and I'm good at it, and I know it's brought pleasure to me and to lots of other people. So after a hyperventilatey pause of some days, I decided to just carry on carrying on.
But with podfic, more than with fanvids or with fanfic or blogging, we are putting ourselves at risk of getting in deep shit with employers, friends, family et al if the wrong person takes something the wrong way. We're doing this because we love storytelling, and because we hope that people are sharing the stories within our communities. And, you know, we CAN'T stop people from posting them to Last.fm, or sticking them on (God forbid) Youtube, or hosting them on their own websites without telling us.
But can you see how this is a more distressing possibility than some fucker stealing the text of a story I wrote and archiving it somewhere under their own name? Because that kind of thing would piss me off massively, but it wouldn't make me worry about losing my job.
In terms of vulnerability, because it's identifiably YOU that's there, your voice, it's more like posting a photo of yourself to share with your friends. The kind of photo that you'd rather not have your boss/client base stumble across.
I don't worry about this with the fic I write. But I do with my recordings.
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But there has been that one time when someone else commissioned a piece of art based on one of my fics, and it wasn't really *for* me. I did ask permission from both the artist and the person who commissioned it.
As for podfic... Last week, I PM'ed everyone who ever recorded one of my fics to ask for (very late) permission, and it turns out I did ask the first couple of them before archiving but not the rest.
What I get from all that is that I didn't think about what any of it meant but went with my gut, and when the first two said "sure" I assumed that was the norm.
Now that I think about it, I understand how frustrating it must be from a podficcer's point of view. I'd never have posted their work elsewhere, my assumptions went as far as my own website - which they all knew about - but it's the principle of the thing, and the reader has no way of knowing what's going through my mind.
While considering this issue, I also realized what giving "blanket" permission meant. I realized I'm not okay with blanket permissions. I had assumed things about what that means as well and didn't bother to clarify where I draw the lines about ownership.
While I'm okay with the podficcer sharing the recording anywhere within fandom, I'm not okay with it getting out of fandom. A blanket permission would mean that the podficcer can enter an e-book reading competition or something with it if they chose to. I'm not saying anyone would, but I don't like the fact that I wouldn't have a say if they did. And what if they decided to charge for downloads?
So I'm glad paraka drew my attention to this. I fixed my permission to clarify just how far it extends and hopefully, there won't be any more misunderstandings from now on.
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I, wow. I hadn't thought of it in that way either. Because, honestly, that goes way outside the bounds of what I consider is implicit in blanket permission. But, obviously, people make different assumptions. o.o
Actually, as I said to
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Yeah, I thought of that analogy too, except when I stopped to think about it, I think I would treat art differently. Like, when I see someone has made a cover for a fic that I then podfic, I'll ask the artist if I can use it as the cover of my podfic. I, of course, credit the podficer in the post and add meta data to the podfic/podbook crediting them. But if I plan to use the picture in my announcement post, I host the picture myself (is that wrong? When I joined fandom people would talk about the evils of hotlinking images so you were told to host it yourself, is that still the case?). I'm beginning to feel kind of hypocritical right now actually.
I don't know, it's like there's this big confliction based on unwritten rules. Like, when
When it comes to art, I think the way that culture grew (with the no hotlinking rule in context) it's sort of expected that you take the picture and host it yourself. And, like, art can be incorporated into a fic. You have the picture show through out the text to round out the fic. Where as podfic stands alone from the fic. Very few people will use the text version and the audio version together.
Art can stand alone from the fic, but it doesn't always, or it loses a lot of it's value to fans without the context of the fic. Using examples, here are two pieces of art used for fic: this one and this one.
The first picture totally stands on it's own as fanart. If I see it in context of The Crown of the Summer Court, it has extra value because it brings some of the value of the fic as well. However, I can appreciate that picture, as a fan, without having read the fic whose scene it's depicting.
The second picture though... It's a nice one, a cute little purse! And it has value as something someone made but the fannish value only comes into play when you know that Adam let Kris borrow a mixed tape called "Love Songs" in Or Be Drowned in Blissful Confusion. Without the context of the fic, it doesn't really have fannish value.
And, at this point, I'm basically using you as a sounding board to work this all out in my head so I don't actually know how to conclude this. :S
I'm a writer, and I'm also a podficcer. When it comes to controlling my own creations, yes, I'd expect to be consulted if somebody wanted to archive one of my stories somewhere, but I wouldn't lose my shit if someone had added my story to an archive somewhere so long as it was credited to me. I'd be kind of pissed, but I wouldn't be WORRIED in the way that I would if somebody cheerfully uploaded one of my podfics to somewhere without my permission.
You know, I didn't think I felt privacy concerns as much as others do but I'm beginning to realize that I maybe do. Like, the reason I ended up putting my vids on YouTube was because they were all already up there. The people that uploaded them never said that they had made them and left my credits on so I was annoyed but I didn't freak out. I had a moment of freak out over this though. Because, yeah, that's my voice on the line. (I think too, part of the difference is I just expected that kind of thing from YouTube people I've never spoken to but didn't from someone on LJ that I have spoken to).
I know that some [expletive deleted] person has taken the liberty of uploading various of my podfics to Last.fm.
Wow. Just wow.
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Talk about timing!
I've never been a fan of podfic - in part, I think, because there wasn't much in my fandoms, and it was a hassle with my previous set up to download and transfer. Not worth the effort, in my mind.
But then I started to see podfic in my fandoms, and I downloaded a bit out of curiosity ... and really liked it. And really liked being able to listen to fic while I was cleaning house, or running errands, or driving to work - times when I was sad because of the lack of fandom in my life.
Now I've become fascinated by it, and am in the process of attempting some podfic of my own... (eeep).
I agree with the fact that it really is a different experience. You have to be in the right mindset for it. I will sometimes only half listen to something as I'm doing things - and then I will find myself standing there, rag in one hand staring into space because the story has suddenly grabbed me.
Or, in at least one case, a fic that was utterly soul destroying as words was done as podfic - and it was ten times more devastating. Because I could look away from the page when it got to be too much, but the voice just kept going, relentlessly. It was really rather intense.
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Yeah, podfic is so unevenly distributed across fandoms. It makes a big difference what fandom you're in, some have fully embraced it, some don't have any podfic at all. I started off in SGA podfic, moved on to SPN/SPN RPF, did a brief stint in Merlin then settled in American Idol RPF. It was physically painful being in AI RPF with it's tiny amount of podfic when I had been in SGA and SPN before. On the plus side, it got me to start podficing wayyyyy more than I used to.
And really liked being able to listen to fic while I was cleaning house, or running errands, or driving to work - times when I was sad because of the lack of fandom in my life.
That's how I listen too (mostly at work for me, actually). Once you figure out the best ways to listen to podfic it makes a huge difference. Although, I find it fascinating when people talk about how/when they listen and it's completely different from how I listen. Like the person below who says they listen to help with speaking English? Totally awesome!
Now I've become fascinated by it, and am in the process of attempting some podfic of my own... (eeep).
Doo eeet! There always needs to be more podfic :)
I'm actually surprised that podfic hasn't caught on more. Most people know how to read and speak, and the programs for podficing aren't that technical or hard to use. If someone is a lurker or just wants to participate in fandom more, podfic seems to be the perfect way to do so.
I agree with the fact that it really is a different experience. You have to be in the right mindset for it. I will sometimes only half listen to something as I'm doing things - and then I will find myself standing there, rag in one hand staring into space because the story has suddenly grabbed me.
I totally get that. I discovered podfic when my job involved cross referencing all day. Back then, even SGA didn't have enough podfic to fill my day so I started listening to audiobooks as well. At first I would get books that people had rec'ed to me and I never got around to reading, only to constantly find myself either not working or not having any idea what was going on. I switched to YA and children's books and things got a lot better. With books for younger people the storylines a little bit more simplistic and they're less subtle (with children's books especially, they'll whack you over the head with the point they're trying to make, so it's really hard to miss it :P).
I've only occasionally had that problem with podfic though. I think it's because with podfic, I already know the characters, giving me that edge on following what's going on. I mean, I still stare into space or miss things sometimes, but that just means I need to listen to the podfic more than once (and I have way more time to listen to podfic than there is podfic in my fandom, so it's a win-win situation).
Or, in at least one case, a fic that was utterly soul destroying as words was done as podfic - and it was ten times more devastating. Because I could look away from the page when it got to be too much, but the voice just kept going, relentlessly. It was really rather intense.
Heh, the only way I was able to get through Twilight was to listen to the audiobook of it. Because every time I wanted to throw the book against the wall in frustration, the reader just kept going in my ear. :P
On the emotional side, I've had that happen too. When I read Freedom's Just Another Word For Nothing Left to Lose, it... didn't actually move me that much. I liked it but it didn't make me cry. I never really got what the fuss was over that story until I listened to the podfic of it (when I was left trying not to cry too loudly over it while sitting at my desk at work). With fics, you can skim, or stop to process and I guess you can do those things with podfic as well, but certainly not as naturally. And having someone read it to you with emotion can make it that much more intense.
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It did take me a while to get past the weirdness of hearing male characters read by girls, and to appreciate the fic instead of thinking 'why can't Americans pronounce aluminium correctly' or 'my god, so-and-so sounds so different to what I was expecting' and yeah, I don't think I could listen to podfic while not doing anything else, except maybe while going to sleep. My attention wanders or I bite my nails.
Basically, what you said. I wouldn't listen instead of read, but anything that makes housework less dull has my vote.
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A lot of people feel that way actually, which is one of the reasons why it always gets me when I see people citing pace as a reason to hate podfic.
It did take me a while to get past the weirdness of hearing male characters read by girls
I don't think that part ever bothered me but I know I did a serious double take the first time I heard someone with a non-American accent read for an American show (I believe it was an Australian podficer reading an SGA podfic). I got over it pretty quickly though and actually became a strong advocate of podficers just reading things in their natural accents.
I don't think I could listen to podfic while not doing anything else, except maybe while going to sleep.
One of the people on my flist listens to podfic first thing in the morning as a slow wake up. I think I could handle that, otherwise I totally have to be doing something, even if it's just solitaire on my computer.
I wouldn't listen instead of read
I think I actually would. I recently applied for a job that would make it impossible to listen to podfic at work (where I currently do all my listening) and started planning ways I could change up my life and schedule to fit podfic in (in the end it didn't matter since I didn't get the job :( ). But making housework fun again is definitely one of the awesome things about podfic.
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Although, it makes me nervous as a podficer that I might mispronounce something and totally mess with someone's English learning.
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I imagine that people who love any kind of books on tape or audiobooks would love podfic, and of course it's a wonderful thing in terms of accessibility too.
For myself, I don't listen to podfic because i don't want to split my attention. At all. I don't want to listen to fic while vacuuming or doing chores or exercising. I love the immersive, Calgon Take Me Away thing that happens when I read silently. I disappear into the story; I escape. And that's my favorite thing about reading.
i love radio -- I listen to NPR a lot and love getting news and information that way.
But fic? No.
But I'm delighted that other people enjoy it and that it works for them.
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You'd think it'd be that easy a comparison for people but I'm constantly finding people talking about how weird and squicky podfic is. It's... I don't know, while I can understand the reasons why many people don't enjoy podfic, I really wish people would stop talking about it like it's wrong (which, I'm not saying you're doing, like at all, it's just, that kind of thing is what inspired this post).
I love the immersive, Calgon Take Me Away thing that happens when I read silently. I disappear into the story; I escape.
Wow, I soooo can't do that. I find I can't read paper books anymore because I constantly do other things, even when reading. I have to check my email and Twitter or I'll read more than one fic at a time. I'm always jumping all over the place. :S
I actually find that listening to podfic while I work helps me work better, because it'll distract me enough that I'm not jumping from project to project and can actually finish something before moving on.
Really, to each their own :)
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:;shrugs::
Nothing wrong with that, but if you're conceptualising fanfic as a private sex fantasy, then having another person's voice - a person of your own gender too, at that - being involved in your fapping fantasy can probably be a bit of a headfuck. Particularly if you're straight.
I think that's where all this "it's squicky!" stuff comes from. Not the "I don't like podfic" thing - plenty of reasons for that. But finding it squicky? I think that's because they're not interested in narrative and storytelling, they're not thinking of fanfic as being something respectable, with integrity or compassion or what have you. They're parsing it as porn, and the non-porn bits as being lead up to porn. And within that mindset, the intimacy of having somebody read a story to you - somebody knowing what you're getting off to, somebody (presumably) getting off to it with you - is being seen as queer, and intrusive, and threatening.
That's what I think.
'Course, notwithstanding the fact that I do read & write porn, I'm not in it for the porn.
(And, God, the prospect of reading the sexy bits of my stories out loud to people IN PERSON was enough to make me flee screaming, the one time that fannish friends were all "Hey, Fay, read us the sexy girl porn from your story." Literally. Screaming. I'm still blushing at that one. But it's fine with podfic, because I just think of it as like acting, and lose myself in the story. It IS intimate, but still at one remove. In my head. Or something.)
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That... is such a foreign concept to me. I mean, there are a select few fics that I read because they're hot but, like, 98% of the fics that I read have nothing to do with the porn. I'm totally happy with a fade-to-black. Actually, if a sex scene is just in a fic to be porny, I'll totally skim it.
Nothing wrong with that, but if you're conceptualising fanfic as a private sex fantasy, then having another person's voice - a person of your own gender too, at that - being involved in your fapping fantasy can probably be a bit of a headfuck. Particularly if you're straight.
That's definitely an angle I've never considered before. Thanks for bringing it forward.
That also helps explain something else that has bothered me in the past. I know a lot of girls will say they like slash "because it's hot" if an outsider asks them. I've always thought that was a bit of a cop out and it totally ignored why I find fandom and slash so amazing. But, I'm really not in it for the sex and I don't think I ever realized that other people could be into it so much for the sex.
(And, God, the prospect of reading the sexy bits of my stories out loud to people IN PERSON was enough to make me flee screaming, the one time that fannish friends were all "Hey, Fay, read us the sexy girl porn from your story." Literally. Screaming. I'm still blushing at that one.
Ha, you know, I don't think I'd have any problems reading podfic in person, even the sexy parts. But that's probably because I would never get off on it so it wouldn't occur to me that other people would. And, actually, I would probably still be ok with them getting off on it, but the minute it was something I would get off on, I think I'd totally freeze up. Even when it comes to podfic, I'm slowly working on this one podfic that falls into that 2% of fic that I read because it's hot and I'm blushing and flailing at the thought of putting it out there. Which, is kind of ridiculous since if I read porn, it's not like the listener is going to be able to tell which kind I, personally, enjoy. The probably assume I enjoy all of it. But, I blame my weird upbringing, with regards to sex, for this. Growing up it was totally ok to talk about sex in a clinical sense or as applied to other people but the minute someone started talking about their own experiences it was uncomfortable and off limits.
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The barriers to entry for me were the quality gap between pro audiobooks and the podfic I was able to find; a dearth of long podfic; and some technical problems (i.e., Audible.com's proprietary player is easy, fiddling with non-iPod player apps on my non-iPhone is hard).
Podbang seemed to open the floodgates on long podfic, which satisfies my preference for long stories and also bypasses a lot of the fiddly technical problems (download once, hit play, listen for a long, long time!).
What's more, the quality gap has grown so narrow in so many cases that I really don't have far to look for excellent, near-pro listening experiences.
All that said, no matter how terrific the story or the recording, I can't imagine just sitting and listening to a podfic. Podfic serves a very specific convergence of needs: my desire for my kind of stories, my inability to concentrate on reading, and the need to fill mindspace and not go nuts with boredom while doing necessary things that don't occupy my whole attention.
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It's good to know that I'm not the only one whose attention span is declining. I can still read long fics but they have to be really good fics. Otherwise I don't read much longer than 50K. And even that can be pushing it at times. But yeah, I don't think I have problems listening to long podfic. Hmmm. I don't think I've ever thought of it that way before....
What's more, the quality gap has grown so narrow in so many cases
That's very true. When I first started listening to podfic there were plenty of bad tech issues and the like. I was so desperate for podfic that I listened to it all. Now though, I find I'm getting a lot more picky about what I listen to (which is sad for me, because the fandom I listen in doesn't have a lot of podfic so I still listen to them but I notice the quality a lot more now).
I can't imagine just sitting and listening to a podfic.
*nods* Even when I've thought I was doing that, thinking back, I really wasn't. I wasn't doing anything productive but I wasn't just sitting there listening either, I would be playing stupid computer games (oh Facebook flash games, I want my life back!). Mostly though, I listen when I'm at work.
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While I do NOT want "standards of quality" imposed, ever, in fandom, I'm excited by the self-selected level of quality that people are achieving with podfic. It has challenged me to do better work, and the overall quality seems to be really skyrocketing. The conjunction of a really good reader and a really good story is a thing of considerable beauty.
Oh, and declining attention span is apparently practically epidemic. You and I are not alone. Podfic came along just in time! :D
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Hmm, I find it interesting that you say that because I don't actually feel that there's more long fic being produced now then there used to be. Although we may have different definitions of long. Or it could just be the fandoms we're in.
Or, maybe it's just that there's more really short fic now to draw contrast. When I first got into podfic, pre-
Although if you consider long podfic 4+ hours then I have to concur that there's a lot more now then there used to be.
Is it incredibly geeky of me that I kind of want to chart this out? I mean, I already have spreadsheet with different kinds of stats on certain podfics, but in my head there are charts and bar graphs and statistical analysis for this kind of thing, which is a whole new level of geeky for me. *headdesk* Maybe I should work on my podbangs instead :S
Someone accomplished a near-professional degree of editing, and that made a bunch of other people realize what was possible and even improve on it. Someone did some exciting acting, and bam! vocal variety and emoting starts to appear.
There is the effect of certain podficers always raising the bar but I think a big part of it is that people are actually talking to each other about this now. There are a lot more resources out there if you want to get started or learn about people's preferences. And it's not just podficers talking, listeners are speaking up about what they like so podficers have a bit more direction in what they do (if they desire that kind of direction). Before there was a lot of stabbing in the dark and emulation.
While I do NOT want "standards of quality" imposed, ever, in fandom, I'm excited by the self-selected level of quality that people are achieving with podfic. It has challenged me to do better work, and the overall quality seems to be really skyrocketing.
Ha, I totally know what you mean. When I first started podficing my thought process was: "Well, I'm so desperate for podfic other people must be too, so they'll probably listen to me" :P Now I routinely flail about the quality of my podfic and try my best to make something of quality (and I like pushing myself to be better, it's one of the awesome things about fandom for me).
Oh, and declining attention span is apparently practically epidemic. You and I are not alone. Podfic came along just in time! :D
Yeah, I totally think how we do things, as a society (at least in much of the western world), is totally making out attention span decline. I can't really read paper books anymore. I'm too used to being able to flip from what I'm reading to any of the various things I check on my computer (email, twitter, flist, etc.).
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huge wonderful time-sinkengrossing project.And yeah, I was thinking of the over-four-hour productions that are becoming more common. My second ever attempt came in at over nine hours, I think, and the only reason I attempted it was Podbang, and the knowledge that others would be trying it too.
As to attention span, yes! The reason I don't want a Kindle, and would prefer to have an e-reader on my pad-like connected device is so that if I get a little bored reading, I can flip to something else without changing devices. Or, you know, budging.
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But I wonder if some of the "I can read it faster" people are not people who are normally reading short fics? I prefer longer fics whether read or listened to and am always thrilled when someone has done a podfic of a Big Bang length fic. Especially if a fic is 5000 words or less, I can also read it faster than taking the time to download, then possibly upload, and then find the fic again to feedback than if I just read it while I had it open. And then there's also the issue that podfic simply can't be found for all fandoms or the types of fic people might want to read so there might be a resistance there to really try it out.
Re: Here from metafandom
You know, I don't think I've ever done that before. Which is surprising since I live with podficers. That would certainly be interesting though.
As for long podfic, I love listening to it, but I seem to have trouble actually making it. I don't go out of my way to read long fics, so that could be part of it but I think I maybe just don't have the patience to make long podfics. I'd rather make something short and post it now! :P
I never really got how people could pass over great podfic just because it's short until I made it a point to bookmark every podfic I listened to. Now it just seems like so much effort. I'm sure it's worse if you listen on an mp3 player.
Re: Here from metafandom
I'm sure it's worse if you listen on an mp3 player.
Yes, I listen on both the computer and mp3 player and I usually prefer to listen to shorter ones on the computer rather than move it into CopyTrans, then sync it, then resync it when I want to delete and transfer new ones.
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Podfic provides a certain level of additional accessibility that way.
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