paraka | *serious thoughts*

serious thoughts

So, I have sort of been following the OTW stuff since it started, but lately haven't really had time to read any of their posts.

seperis made a post about some wank going on about it though, so I've been reading. I'll start off by saying while I've read her post and the comments in it's entirety, I haven't really read anything else.

The post was made in response to this blog post by John Scalzi. I haven't read any of the comments yet, in fact I haven't even read his entire post. I seem to have gotten caught on his first and second points:

1. First, and as a simple, practical matter,there’s the OTW on one side of this legal argument, with what it identifies as fandom. On the other side of this argument is an entire entertainment industry, with almost unlimited phalanxes of lawyers and lobbyists. This point isn’t about legal right and wrong; it’s a notation of the relative amount of resources each side can throw at the issue.
2. Related to point one, to the extent that fandom currently does what it does, it does it because of the benign neglect or tolerance of the copyright holders of the works the fans are working with. If and when a fan, told by, say, NBC Universal to take down her Battlestar Galacticafanfic, decides to make the legal argument that her work is transformative and fair use, thus obliging the corporation to show up in court to make a counter argument (i.e., to throw more resources at the problem than a simple Cease and Desist) and the fan shows up in court with the assistance of an umbrella group dedicated to the proposition that all fan work is legal and transformative, I suspect the era of benign neglect or tolerance of fan activity will be at a sudden and pronounced end. Because now the fans are saying, why, yes, this really does belong to us,and corporations who have invested millions in and can reap billions from their projects will quite naturally see this as a threat. From there it’s all DMCA notices and entire fan sites going down.

See, now I'm not sure I ca agree with this guy on this. Yes the entertainment industry has a lot of money behind it, but one of the reasons it's been able to bully people when it comes to copyright issues is that they target individual small fish. There have been a few people who try to stand up to them, but get buried under the paperwork and cost of court appearances.

The OTW is starting a legal defense fund. They have lawyers working for them. They are a central organization for fans. I think if they were able to put a lot of publicity throughout fandom of a court battle they would get a lot of support. I know I'd be more than happy to donate money to such a cause. Fandom as a whole has a lot of money, if we could raise almost $15,000 for Sweet Charity what do you think all of fandom could do? I know a lot of us would feel a lot more comfortable in fandom if we didn't have to worry about it maybe being illegal. I know I would be willing to pay for that kind of peace of mind.

It also really bothers me how this guy is trying to scare us out of the OTW. Trying to imply that they will be the downfall of fandom. You know what? I'm pretty sure that fandom is indestructible, or at least the fannish activities are. How many of us, as children, would play make believe with their friends and be characters from you're favourite shows? I know that for most of my childhood years, every time I got in a swimming pool, I'd pretend to be the little mermaid for at least a few minutes. Even as a teenager I'd sit there thinking "What if I was Buffy" or "What if I were to visit Sunnydale" I never wrote them down, but that's just because I'm not really a writer. I'm sure there are a lot of other kids who did write them down, even if they never shared them with anyone.

Look at something like the Star Trek culture. They've been around for decades. They may have a bad rap, but they were the original comings together of fandom. They'd create their fanzines and mail them out. They'd have their conventions where they could get together, dress up, and geek out.

The internet has been a great breeding ground for fandom, but fandom can exist without it, even if it's just two friends getting together to talk about their favourite show.

That being said, I think if TPTB really tried, and we didn't fight back properly, they could really cripple fandom, but I still think we'd exist. We'd just get more secretive about it. We'd go back to private mailing lists. We'd start locking down webpages. We'd develop codes. It would make it much harder for new people to join, and would invite more cliques, and small circles of fans, but still, we'd survive. I remember when WB first got the rights for Harry Potter, and went around the internet telling people to take down their HP webpages. My little sister had one and was slightly nervous that she'd be caught, but she never was. Because there are too many of us. And every time TPTB would close down a site, another one would just pop up. They would have to have entire teams whose sole job is to weed us out, and I think that would be far more money to them then they'd be willing to put forth. Also, I think they'd find that they lose fans that way. I think if TPTB for any of my fandoms, no matter how much I love them, if they were to try that, I'd just stop watching that show. I'd stop buying the DVDs, and I'd stop giving them any of my money. Just on principle.

This guy, this, I don't even know who he is, I've never heard of him. He's trying to tell us to keep it down, to keep our heads down, or we'll lose everything. He's trying to tell us the the bug guys hold all the power, that we're just here because they *let* us be here. I think, like all big companies, they've forgotten that it's really the other way around. *We* are the customer. *We* are the ones with the power. Fandom is a big scary group of people, even if we never stand united on a single front, I think someone with charisma could get enough of us on their side to make a difference. How many of us would it take to boycott something for them to feel it? Hey if I was able to take the time to send out over 100 letters to TPTB to bring Carson back (as part of the campaign, I didn't write them all myself), I'd be more than willing to send endless letters out to sponsors, to newspapers, to the media. Make sure that we are heard. I'd be willing to boycott, even my most favourite shows, it it meant that I'd be able to stay in fandom, even if it's in a different section.

I don't think it'll ever come to this though. No one has been able to prove that fandom hurts the big shots (in fact, I'm sure if they were to research it, they'd find the opposite), and if they can't keep the rampant media piracy down, then what hope have they of keeping us down? With the media piracy, they've seemed to move more towards the "Well if we can't beat them, join them" attitude, which is why I think so many shows are now available officially online. I would hate to see fandom go through some of those motions, because I can see it hurting us, but in the end, they can't kill us. We're too big for them.

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"This guy, this, I don't even know who he is, I've never heard of him. He's trying to tell us to keep it down, to keep our heads down, or we'll lose everything."

Well, no. The OTW and fans, individually and several, are free to do as they will. I *am* saying that these are issues I see the OTW having to deal with. I base these estimations both on more than a decade and a half of watching how the entertainment industry does things, first as a newspaper writer and now as an author.

I think you misapprehend my feelings about fans and fanwork, possibly because you didn't read the entry all the way through. I'm personally positive about it and would be quite happy to have fanwork done in my universe, and feel it's generally a positive thing for any universe. That said, I think the claim of all fanwork being transformative and fair use is extraordinary and raises a number of problems and consequences, both for the OTW and fandom.

I'm not trying to scare anyone out of doing anything. I do think that it's better if the OTW recognizes these certain issues, and moves to address them.

Sorry for my late response, I wanted to read the rest of your post and some of the comments before reply.

I base these estimations both on more than a decade and a half of watching how the entertainment industry does things, first as a newspaper writer and now as an author.
I don't doubt your standing within the entertainment industry, that's why I linked to your bio, and not just to your blog page. I do however doubt your standing, and *understanding* of fandom.
In your first two points (and some of your others), which I address in my own post, you show your misunderstanding of fandom, and worse yet; you take on the words and tone of those before you, and make broad statements that are meant to put the fear of "The Industry" into our hearts. "Because now the fans are saying, why, yes, this really does belong to us, and corporations who have invested millions in and can reap billions from their projects will quite naturally see this as a threat. From there it’s all DMCA notices and entire fan sites going down." You try to tell us that if we attempt anything, we'll lose everything.

Or "On the other side of this argument is an entire entertainment industry, with almost unlimited phalanxes of lawyers and lobbyists. This point isn’t about legal right and wrong; it’s a notation of the relative amount of resources each side can throw at the issue."
My post challenges that statement. Fans are a *large* group with deep pockets. We have time, money, volunteers, expertise, passion, and a lot to lose if we don't win. I think if it were to come down to a battle between fandom and the big shots, they'd be surprised at how much we can fight back with.

I'm not trying to scare anyone out of doing anything. I do think that it's better if the OTW recognizes these certain issues, and moves to address them.
That may have been your intent, but like I said above, your first two statements came across as such, if only because they closely mirror the words (and perhaps I misinterpreted your tone) of those before you who *have* been trying to scare us out of doing anything. Even the rest or your statements came across as "You're going to fail".

It's very frustrating for the people of fandom, since for the most part we *do* try to keep our heads down and respect those who's works we're borrowing. But it seems the more we grow the more restrictions are being passed onto us from those we try to respect. What non-fandom people don't seem to understand is that the OTW isn't out there trying to carve our way into the mainstream, they're there to protect what is slowly being taken away from us. They're not planning on going out there and knocking on the industries door and handing them a court case, they're getting ready for the next time the industry knocks on *our* door and hands us a court case. It's happened in the past, and I'm sure it'll happen in the future. They're taking this stance early on, because they look at what's around us and see how it's less because of what TPTB have said we can and can't do. Look at something like Fanfiction.net. Most people who have been in fandom for any length of time (at least slash fandom) have learned to not even bother with that site, because they just keep bending and bowing and giving in to TPTB that they're no longer a good site. They don't host NC-17 fics, they can't even say they don't host NC-17 fics, because that type of warning label was taken from them. There are certain fandoms they won't host, because they've been told they can't. They don't host song fics, because they music industry has denied them access to their lyrics, they don't allow self insertion fics, because they can't host anything based on a real person. Fanfiction.net has effectively been neutered. The OTW doesn't want to put so much time, effort and money into a site if that's how it's going to end up. They just want to be able to put a great fan resource out there and be able to protect it.

I can't even imagine why TPTB would want to shut down fan sites, fic writers, etc. Aren't the fans the last people they should be trying to attack? I know fanfic has gotten me through a lot of bad times when the writers failed me (ARE YOU LISTENING, COWLIP????).

I can't even imagine why TPTB would want to shut down fan sites, fic writers, etc. Aren't the fans the last people they should be trying to attack?
But that would be *logical*.

And actually it has happened in the past, I mentioned when they *tried* shutting down all the unoffical Harry Potter sites, I know the X-Files fandom was aught after. There are also some author's that have made a fuss about fanfic. I heard that Anne Rice will Track. You. Down. If you write fic for her books (which I find absolutely *hilarious* because her newer books are basically Bible fanfic).

I think it comes back to ignorance on the side of the enternainment industry. Look at what

scalzi wrote in the blog entry I linked to. He's someone who is in the industry, and who doesn't seem to understand fandom. And

seperis' response. They (the industry) don't seem to understand that we're not in this for money. That we're going to spend all this time writing fic, and not want to have it published, to make money off of it. While I'm sure there are quite a few people in fandom who would like to become a professional writer, I'd guess that 99.99% of us, don't ever intend, expect or even *want* to make it off of fanfic. The few people who have tried, well fandom mocks them, and tries to talk them out of it.

The thing is, TPTB want to be in control, and they feel fanfic threatens that. They just odn't seem to realize that fanfic, and fandom in general, always concedes control whenever we post something. We may write a virtual season while waiting for the next to come out, but we realize, that when the next season comes out, it's going to be canon, and the virtual season has no authority over it. People don't really decide to throw out canon and beleive in one fanon. We're too fickle for that. Even in your statement about Cowlip, fans may choose to seek out fic that changes the ending of the show, or adds to it so we're happy, but it's not like we really deny that what they wrote was what happened. It's not like someone out there wrote a tag, and we all take it to be canon from then on out.

It all just seems so ridonculous. I mean, if people were trying to make money through fandom, wouldn't we have done it by now? I can think of quite a few people who wouldn't have to work a day in their lives if that were the case. The fans who care enough to write or read fic, or to make or watch vids are the same fans who go out and buy the DVDs, action figures, comic books, etc. We're losing money! And what do we get for our devotion? Threats of lawsuits.

if people were trying to make money through fandom, wouldn't we have done it by now?
Well, for one people have. And to be fair,

scalzi had a point; the reason why people don't make money, and the reason why the rest of fandom looks down on people trying to do so is because we know that fanfic is in the grey area of legal. We don't want to be caught out, or do anything that would piss TPTB off enough that they try and crack down on us. If fanfic were to be taken out of the grey area and put into the white, then people would probably *try* and sell it.

I just have a feeling that if (or when) we take it to court and get that move, one of the big stipulations, or one of the grounds we'll be basing our argument off of, is that we don't make money off of our fanworks. So to that end, I doubt a new industry will pop up, but people do like making predictive arguments.

The fans who care enough to write or read fic, or to make or watch vids are the same fans who go out and buy the DVDs, action figures, comic books, etc. We're losing money! And what do we get for our devotion? Threats of lawsuits.
That's what makes this whole thing so incredibly annoying. People who devote enough time to a show to be in the fandom are generally willing to throw money at it. Sure, not everyone goes out and buys the DVDs, and fandom does seem to encourage a lot of piracy, but if they were only to sell more products that can't be digitally shared they'd make a ton more money. Things like books, and action figures, cons and set sales.

Look at sci fi, which has the early fandoms (like Star Trek), they have a bad rep, because their fans are so devoted they go to insane, and expensive, lengths to have more. That industry has gone so much farther than the original show because of the fans. Star Trek is an industry on it's *own* because of the fans.

Look at something like Harry Potter? The insane amount of money J. K. Rawling has made, not just from the books, but movie deals, and merchandise. And all the money *other* people have made off of her works. It too is an industry on it's own.

Not every show can support a large fandom like Star Trek and Harry Potter, but there are a lot of shows out there that people *do* go crazy over, and would pay to get more of, and the industry just doesn't seem to cash in on that enough, and instead runs away from the fans and their money.

*sorry for my long ass replies, I've gotten very talky when it comes to LJ*

"Well, for one people have."

Really? Shows how much I know. I suppose I'm pretty clueless about fandoms other than QAF. Now that I think about it, it is a very small fandom that I live in, compared to, say, Harry Potter or Star Trek.

Really? Shows how much I know. I suppose I'm pretty clueless about fandoms other than QAF. Now that I think about it, it is a very small fandom that I live in, compared to, say, Harry Potter or Star Trek.
It happened even in the QaF fandom. The woman who ran the convention? And that Midnight Whisperer's site? She would sell, not fanfic, but other things she made that were clearly QaF. Like Brain/Justin teddy bears, and other crafts she made. I've seen people sell art they made by photoshopping pics from the show. Things like that.

I've more seen people selling art (hand drawn, or completely computer generated, but based on characters from their fandom) so there isn't as many cases of people selling fanfic, but one person who's mentioned a lot is Lori Jareo, but people like that, well fandom tends to call them stupid and ignores them anyways.

I've seen quite a few cases where people will sell their fic to raise money for something. Often a charity, that's what Sweet Charity was about, but sometimes to raise money for a fansite or similar. There isn't really and policing of those sales, because we feel it's going to a good cause, and the sellers aren't making a profit from it. But still it's there.

Clearly I am clueless about all sorts of things! I didn't know the convention was a money-making thing. I guess I never really thought about it. Conventions are the sort of thing I try to avoid, anyway. They tend to attract the crazies. Or so I hear.

And that is me posting without logging in first.

:) Hee. Do you not stay logged in all the time? Or do you have more than one journal? It's just, I see people make this mistake all the time, but it's not one I've ever made, and I just wonder at the reason.

Clearly I am clueless about all sorts of things! I didn't know the convention was a money-making thing
I don't think they're for profit, at least not the QaF one, there are some that do make profit, but they tend to be officially endorsed. Fan ones may have some money at the end, but it's generally put towards the next years convention, or donated to charity. I think. I don't actually know that much about the behind the scenes stuff.
I didn't actually mean to say that she made money off of the con, more that it was the woman who ran the con who I've seen try to make money off of fandom by selling her B/J crafts.

Conventions are the sort of thing I try to avoid, anyway. They tend to attract the crazies.
I... may have gone to a convention or two...
Not the QaF ones, but I've gone to the Sci Fi one that's held in Toronto the past two years. They're actually pretty fun. Sure there are some crazies, but that's kind of the point, you go there so you can act crazy. And I other than a few people who are inappropriate it's mostly not as crazy as people think. Just outsiders looking in and not understanding. :P

"Do you not stay logged in all the time?"

No, because I'm at work, so I like to log out when I'm done, just in case.

Re. the crazies at cons, I was thinking of QAF crazies, because we seem to have a special breed. Sci-fi cons are one thing, I sort of expect them to be a bit crazy. Cuz, you know, it's sci-fi. But our crazies who find out where the actors live and break into studios and things like that, that's not something I want to be a part of. Although those people weren't necessarily at the con, but it seems like the sort of thing they would do.

No, because I'm at work, so I like to log out when I'm done, just in case.
Meh, I just stayed logged in, even at work. Granted, my computer locks if I'm away long enough for the screen saver to turn on, and if someone else logs in, all of my settings are kept from them (even from admin I believe) so I don't think I'm in much danger.

and break into studios
There were fans that broke into the studio? :O How did I not hear about that?

crazies who find out where the actors live
See, now that's my line. It's all well and good to go crazy with other fans, but the minute you try and bring the actors in on it, you've gone too far. Also, it takes away from other fans, because the actors get freaked out and stay away. I know I was really disappointed the one time I saw Randy. It was on the last day of Equus, and apperantly people had been stalking him and harassing him, so he basically ran away from everyone, and I almost didn't get an autograph.
At the first con I went to, someone asked Michael Shanks (Daniel from Stargate) about crazy fans, and some of the things he said... :S Hell, even at out Q&A a couple times people yelled at him to take his clothes off. It's things like that, that really give the fans a bad name. Some people have no common sense.

You didn't hear about the fans who broke into the studio because I heard about it from a crew member who we befriended while we were ~~stalking~~ watching filming on season 5, and we had to keep most of those detaily things on the down-low because we didn't want our informants to get in trouble. I was very paranoid about losing our source, so I don't think I wrote much about it on lj at the time. But yeah, some fans broke into one of the studios. I don't think there were any cast members there at the time, though.

Poor Randypants. I always go see him at the Berkshires, and my peeps and I always kind of hang back to see how he's feeling, whether he's in the autograph-signing and picture-taking mood or not. A couple of times he has pretty much dashed out the stage door, and a lot of the girls try to run after him. I, on the other hand, am fully capable of taking a hint, and not bothering them when they don't want to be bothered. One of my proudest moments ever was in the parking lot of the Berkshire theatre after Amadeus, when I passed Randy walking in the opposite direction, and I said "Great show tonight!" and he said "Thanks!" and gave me ***that smile***. Sigh.

A couple of times he has pretty much dashed out the stage door, and a lot of the girls try to run after him. I, on the other hand, am fully capable of taking a hint, and not bothering them when they don't want to be bothered.
On the one hand, yes, leave the poor man alone, but on the other hand, I can totally understand the point of the fans. I mean some people travel really far to Berkshire, just see Randy. When I was there, there was a group from *Japan* there to see him. It's really, really disappointing to get that close and have him just brush you off. I know he doesn't owe us anything, but still it's hard to take as a fan, especially if this was a special treat that you won't easily be able to repeat. Not that I'm behind stalking him or anything, but I can understand waiting in the parking lot to ask for an autograph, and still asking even if he's not loitering; that's how I got my autograph. *Shrugs*

Oh and I totally forgot to mention, but I got your card today! Thanks so much.

Although, I forgot that you've watched SGA, when I saw you mention Rodney, I thought that I had been wrong in thinking that your RL name belonged to you. *head desk*

You're welcome!

Heehee. Sorry about the confusion!

It's not your fault! I just can't seem to keep your RL details straight in my head. Also, you're very firmly a QaF friend in my head, so... :P

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