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OTPs, John and Rodney in Fandom.
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equuscentric asked a question over at sardonicsmiley's Unpopular Opinion Post:
how can you love McShep when you have so much hatred for one of the pairing? That sort of thing would totally yank me out of a pairing, so it doesn't make any sense to me.
It's a completely valid question. And I do think it would be hard to ship a pairing if you *hated* half of it, but still, I think a lot of people do it.
I know I don't care for John all that much, but I still ship John/Rodney. I think the reason why I can do it though, is because it's *canon* John I'm not crazy about. Once you get into fic though, it's like he's a different character. And author's have a chance to give us more history, and an inside view of his emotions. So I've come to love Fanon McShep, and I'll be totally honest here and say, especially this past season, I don't really see McShep in canon.
What about you guys?
And while we're on the topic,equsscentric also said: What starts to get my hackles up is that many people, for some reason,seem to feel that they have to praise Rodney at John's expense. Rodney being rude is "snarky" and fun, while John being rude makes him an asshole. Why is it more acceptable in Rodney but not in John? It's all in perception, and the fandom's perception is skewed toward Rodney at the other's expense.
While I can't disagree that fandom, especially the fics I search out, have that skewed perception, I don't know how out of line it is. I've spoken toparadise_city about this in the past (seriously, what aspect of SGA haven't we discussed :P) but part of the reason why I feel ok in doing this, is because of what we see in canon. Yes Rodney is rude, and sarcastic and has flaws and makes mistakes, but they call him on it in canon. They don't really do that with the other characters. The best example I can think of is, of course, Duranda.
John woke up the Wraith, and just got a "It's not your fault". Carson killed half a planets population, and got a pat on the back. One of the things that got me the *most* about it though, is that near the end of that ep, we see Teyla come through the gate into the control room, and we can hear Elizabeth losing it, and totally reaming Rodney where everyone can hear. Now, she's gotten angry with John in the past, but she has always taken him aside and made her displeasure known with stony words and raised eyebrows, but with Rodney, she totally loses it. Rodney is the Chief of Science, and she totally dressed him down in front of some of his people and where anyone could hear about it. Rodney is going to have enough troubles with his staff getting over what he did, but how are any of them going to respect him, when they saw his superior show so much disrespect?
I don't blame Weir for yelling at him, but I do blame her for doing it in a public manner. At least Sheppard kept it at a private level once they were out of the heat.
Same thing goes with Rodney being an ass. We all know he can be an ass, but it's mostly because he's sort of oblivious about people, and can get really wrapped up in himself. We all know he acts this way, and acknowledge it. It's been acknowledged on the show, both by other characters (Sam has said the most outright, but Weir has with raised eyebrows and disapproval, John has with looks and head slaps and I'm sure the others have indicated to Rodney when he's been out of line too) and by Rodney himself (confessions to Sam and Jeanie, and even himself in Grace Under Pressure).
John on the other hand, I think Elizabeth was the only one who really called John on his actions, and that had more to do with command issues than his behaviour. John can be outright mean to others, especially Rodney. I think it's made worse by the fact that John does know people, and knows Rodney, and he has to know as he's being an ass what he's doing, and it's effects on people. Or at the very least should recognize the fact soon after doing it. Also, they never acknowledge John as being an ass on the show. You never see the members of his team call him on it, like they will for McKay sometimes. You never see John react when he says things like that. And it's further aggravated to me, because John has the reputation of being all smooth and lovable, completely ignoring that aspect of his character. Fandom takes Rodney's flaws and makes them better, that's what we're supposed to do, but we seem to as a whole, ignore John's a lot more (granted I know there are fics out there, especially set after Trinity where John is a complete asshole, but those are just as bad, since they ignore John's other qualites).
I think the Rodney fans feel the need to pick on these points, not just with John, but with other characters, because Rodney is the only one who really gets picked on in canon. Carson and to some extent Elizabeth had some personal self doubt, and Carson called Elizabeth on the whole Allies with the Wraith thing, but other than that, I can't think of anything. But still, even when the others are being called on what they do, they seem to still get respect from those doing it, whereas I don't always get that feeling when they call Rodney on his shit.
Please feel free to disagree with me, and I'd love some examples, because it could totally be selective memory on my part. Andequsscentric I hope you realize I'm not trying to pick on you, but you just got me thinking, and said it in a really clear way for me to respond to.
ETA:equuscentric would like to add that she does love Rodney if anyone where to think that (although personally, I didn't get any Rodney hate vibes of what she said, and you'll certainly see that if you read the thread linked above), you can read her response here.
equuscentric asked a question over at sardonicsmiley's Unpopular Opinion Post:how can you love McShep when you have so much hatred for one of the pairing? That sort of thing would totally yank me out of a pairing, so it doesn't make any sense to me.
It's a completely valid question. And I do think it would be hard to ship a pairing if you *hated* half of it, but still, I think a lot of people do it.
I know I don't care for John all that much, but I still ship John/Rodney. I think the reason why I can do it though, is because it's *canon* John I'm not crazy about. Once you get into fic though, it's like he's a different character. And author's have a chance to give us more history, and an inside view of his emotions. So I've come to love Fanon McShep, and I'll be totally honest here and say, especially this past season, I don't really see McShep in canon.
What about you guys?
And while we're on the topic,
equsscentric also said: What starts to get my hackles up is that many people, for some reason,seem to feel that they have to praise Rodney at John's expense. Rodney being rude is "snarky" and fun, while John being rude makes him an asshole. Why is it more acceptable in Rodney but not in John? It's all in perception, and the fandom's perception is skewed toward Rodney at the other's expense.While I can't disagree that fandom, especially the fics I search out, have that skewed perception, I don't know how out of line it is. I've spoken to
paradise_city about this in the past (seriously, what aspect of SGA haven't we discussed :P) but part of the reason why I feel ok in doing this, is because of what we see in canon. Yes Rodney is rude, and sarcastic and has flaws and makes mistakes, but they call him on it in canon. They don't really do that with the other characters. The best example I can think of is, of course, Duranda.John woke up the Wraith, and just got a "It's not your fault". Carson killed half a planets population, and got a pat on the back. One of the things that got me the *most* about it though, is that near the end of that ep, we see Teyla come through the gate into the control room, and we can hear Elizabeth losing it, and totally reaming Rodney where everyone can hear. Now, she's gotten angry with John in the past, but she has always taken him aside and made her displeasure known with stony words and raised eyebrows, but with Rodney, she totally loses it. Rodney is the Chief of Science, and she totally dressed him down in front of some of his people and where anyone could hear about it. Rodney is going to have enough troubles with his staff getting over what he did, but how are any of them going to respect him, when they saw his superior show so much disrespect?
I don't blame Weir for yelling at him, but I do blame her for doing it in a public manner. At least Sheppard kept it at a private level once they were out of the heat.
Same thing goes with Rodney being an ass. We all know he can be an ass, but it's mostly because he's sort of oblivious about people, and can get really wrapped up in himself. We all know he acts this way, and acknowledge it. It's been acknowledged on the show, both by other characters (Sam has said the most outright, but Weir has with raised eyebrows and disapproval, John has with looks and head slaps and I'm sure the others have indicated to Rodney when he's been out of line too) and by Rodney himself (confessions to Sam and Jeanie, and even himself in Grace Under Pressure).
John on the other hand, I think Elizabeth was the only one who really called John on his actions, and that had more to do with command issues than his behaviour. John can be outright mean to others, especially Rodney. I think it's made worse by the fact that John does know people, and knows Rodney, and he has to know as he's being an ass what he's doing, and it's effects on people. Or at the very least should recognize the fact soon after doing it. Also, they never acknowledge John as being an ass on the show. You never see the members of his team call him on it, like they will for McKay sometimes. You never see John react when he says things like that. And it's further aggravated to me, because John has the reputation of being all smooth and lovable, completely ignoring that aspect of his character. Fandom takes Rodney's flaws and makes them better, that's what we're supposed to do, but we seem to as a whole, ignore John's a lot more (granted I know there are fics out there, especially set after Trinity where John is a complete asshole, but those are just as bad, since they ignore John's other qualites).
I think the Rodney fans feel the need to pick on these points, not just with John, but with other characters, because Rodney is the only one who really gets picked on in canon. Carson and to some extent Elizabeth had some personal self doubt, and Carson called Elizabeth on the whole Allies with the Wraith thing, but other than that, I can't think of anything. But still, even when the others are being called on what they do, they seem to still get respect from those doing it, whereas I don't always get that feeling when they call Rodney on his shit.
Please feel free to disagree with me, and I'd love some examples, because it could totally be selective memory on my part. And
equsscentric I hope you realize I'm not trying to pick on you, but you just got me thinking, and said it in a really clear way for me to respond to.ETA:
equuscentric would like to add that she does love Rodney if anyone where to think that (although personally, I didn't get any Rodney hate vibes of what she said, and you'll certainly see that if you read the thread linked above), you can read her response here.
no subject
...There was fandom meta for QaF?
I seriously think you and I had very different fandom experiences in QaF :P
no subject
Which leads me back to my first original comment up there. I would sometimes, out of curiosity, poke my nose into the occasional B/M discussion, and I was really surprised at how many B/M shippers either strongly disliked or outright hated Brian. Some of the things they said were shockingly hostile and it really made me wonder why the hell they were shipping their beloved Mikey (*eyeroll*) with someone they couldn't stand. Especially when they had a canon ship with Ben, who was a wonderful character in his own right (and in a three way tie with Emmett and Ted as my second favorite on the show).
I can see liking one character more than another. I'm obviously a Brian fan. I liked Justin, but my interest in him was primarily his relationship with and importance to Brian; I had very little interest in Justin outside of Brian-related storylines. So in that vein, I can see why you would like McShep even though you don't really like John all that much. What I was responding to was the "I HATEHATEHATE JOHN" comment, because that's rather more vehement than disinterest.
no subject
Ahh, see come season 5, I was mostly leaving the fandom. Also I was one of those spoiler virgins, so I avoid all the spoiler discussions regardless of wank, and the only wank I saw came from other virgins complaining about inconsiderate spoiler hos who'd post spoilers without cuts or warnings. :P
I knew about the shipper wars, but I never actually saw them all that often. Once a person on my flist got caught up with it in
I would sometimes, out of curiosity, poke my nose into the occasional B/M discussion, and I was really surprised at how many B/M shippers either strongly disliked or outright hated Brian. Some of the things they said were shockingly hostile and it really made me wonder why the hell they were shipping their beloved Mikey (*eyeroll*) with someone they couldn't stand.
Wow, I always assumed the B/Mers hated Justin. The only B/Mers that I really "knew" at all were the vidders of itsnotbullshit.com because I loved Veero's vids. Actually, I remember when I made my first vid,
Especially when they had a canon ship with Ben, who was a wonderful character in his own right
The only thing I could really say to defend them, is that Brian did treat Mikey kind of badly, but Mikey still wanted him. And if you started shipping from the beginning, Ben wasn't there, and gah, who the hell can like David? He was so creepy, and was basically using Mikey as a young boy-toy. God, I found David so creepy, there are no words. And some people, when they get into a ship, they don't like changing it later on. But yeah, if you adore Mikey, I can understand why you'd hate Brian as a potential love interest, since I think he'd make Mikey miserable (you know he really, really would), but that's why I didn't ship them....
Maybe the B/Mers were frustrated because in season one they did have a lot of sexual undercurrents going on, and then it just kind of disappeared as the focus moved, and the fans of that ship probably just got bitter.
That's sort of happened to me in Numb3rs. In season 1 Don and Charlie have so much going on between then, now though, you're lucky if they're even in the same scene together, and if they are, they generally have their girlfriends with them. It'd killing the pairing for me, and I find it really hard to read fanfic in that fandom now. But I don't hate either of them (*attempts to sound on topic* :P).
I can see liking one character more than another. I'm obviously a Brian fan. I liked Justin, but my interest in him was primarily his relationship with and importance to Brian;
I didn't have a favourite between those two until season 3, when Brian was acting like a big woobie cuddly thing, that's when I fell head over heels for Brian. It didn't help that Justin's side storylines were things like The Gay/Straight Alliance and the Pink Posse.
What I was responding to was the "I HATEHATEHATE JOHN" comment, because that's rather more vehement than disinterest.
Hmm. I think while you and I have flists that seem to be Rodney lovers, there are still quite a few John lovers out there. There's this one mailing list I'm on where there seems to be a lot more John lovers. Listening to people squee about how awesome John is or making him sound like he's perfect, completely ignoring his faults (I'm sure you've felt the same, but about people talking about Rodney instead)... Well it can drive some people a little crazy, and they don't think to blame their friends, so instead focus on the character. *shrugs*
Sorry about the messed up tags, I wrote this up in Writer while in the car, and some of the characters didn't transfer. Also, now whenever I type in hate in Writer, it asks me if I mean HATEHATEHATE because I had copied your comment into it :P