![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
OTPs, John and Rodney in Fandom.
So, ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
equuscentric asked a question over at sardonicsmiley's Unpopular Opinion Post:
how can you love McShep when you have so much hatred for one of the pairing? That sort of thing would totally yank me out of a pairing, so it doesn't make any sense to me.
It's a completely valid question. And I do think it would be hard to ship a pairing if you *hated* half of it, but still, I think a lot of people do it.
I know I don't care for John all that much, but I still ship John/Rodney. I think the reason why I can do it though, is because it's *canon* John I'm not crazy about. Once you get into fic though, it's like he's a different character. And author's have a chance to give us more history, and an inside view of his emotions. So I've come to love Fanon McShep, and I'll be totally honest here and say, especially this past season, I don't really see McShep in canon.
What about you guys?
And while we're on the topic,equsscentric also said: What starts to get my hackles up is that many people, for some reason,seem to feel that they have to praise Rodney at John's expense. Rodney being rude is "snarky" and fun, while John being rude makes him an asshole. Why is it more acceptable in Rodney but not in John? It's all in perception, and the fandom's perception is skewed toward Rodney at the other's expense.
While I can't disagree that fandom, especially the fics I search out, have that skewed perception, I don't know how out of line it is. I've spoken toparadise_city about this in the past (seriously, what aspect of SGA haven't we discussed :P) but part of the reason why I feel ok in doing this, is because of what we see in canon. Yes Rodney is rude, and sarcastic and has flaws and makes mistakes, but they call him on it in canon. They don't really do that with the other characters. The best example I can think of is, of course, Duranda.
John woke up the Wraith, and just got a "It's not your fault". Carson killed half a planets population, and got a pat on the back. One of the things that got me the *most* about it though, is that near the end of that ep, we see Teyla come through the gate into the control room, and we can hear Elizabeth losing it, and totally reaming Rodney where everyone can hear. Now, she's gotten angry with John in the past, but she has always taken him aside and made her displeasure known with stony words and raised eyebrows, but with Rodney, she totally loses it. Rodney is the Chief of Science, and she totally dressed him down in front of some of his people and where anyone could hear about it. Rodney is going to have enough troubles with his staff getting over what he did, but how are any of them going to respect him, when they saw his superior show so much disrespect?
I don't blame Weir for yelling at him, but I do blame her for doing it in a public manner. At least Sheppard kept it at a private level once they were out of the heat.
Same thing goes with Rodney being an ass. We all know he can be an ass, but it's mostly because he's sort of oblivious about people, and can get really wrapped up in himself. We all know he acts this way, and acknowledge it. It's been acknowledged on the show, both by other characters (Sam has said the most outright, but Weir has with raised eyebrows and disapproval, John has with looks and head slaps and I'm sure the others have indicated to Rodney when he's been out of line too) and by Rodney himself (confessions to Sam and Jeanie, and even himself in Grace Under Pressure).
John on the other hand, I think Elizabeth was the only one who really called John on his actions, and that had more to do with command issues than his behaviour. John can be outright mean to others, especially Rodney. I think it's made worse by the fact that John does know people, and knows Rodney, and he has to know as he's being an ass what he's doing, and it's effects on people. Or at the very least should recognize the fact soon after doing it. Also, they never acknowledge John as being an ass on the show. You never see the members of his team call him on it, like they will for McKay sometimes. You never see John react when he says things like that. And it's further aggravated to me, because John has the reputation of being all smooth and lovable, completely ignoring that aspect of his character. Fandom takes Rodney's flaws and makes them better, that's what we're supposed to do, but we seem to as a whole, ignore John's a lot more (granted I know there are fics out there, especially set after Trinity where John is a complete asshole, but those are just as bad, since they ignore John's other qualites).
I think the Rodney fans feel the need to pick on these points, not just with John, but with other characters, because Rodney is the only one who really gets picked on in canon. Carson and to some extent Elizabeth had some personal self doubt, and Carson called Elizabeth on the whole Allies with the Wraith thing, but other than that, I can't think of anything. But still, even when the others are being called on what they do, they seem to still get respect from those doing it, whereas I don't always get that feeling when they call Rodney on his shit.
Please feel free to disagree with me, and I'd love some examples, because it could totally be selective memory on my part. Andequsscentric I hope you realize I'm not trying to pick on you, but you just got me thinking, and said it in a really clear way for me to respond to.
ETA:equuscentric would like to add that she does love Rodney if anyone where to think that (although personally, I didn't get any Rodney hate vibes of what she said, and you'll certainly see that if you read the thread linked above), you can read her response here.
equuscentric asked a question over at sardonicsmiley's Unpopular Opinion Post:how can you love McShep when you have so much hatred for one of the pairing? That sort of thing would totally yank me out of a pairing, so it doesn't make any sense to me.
It's a completely valid question. And I do think it would be hard to ship a pairing if you *hated* half of it, but still, I think a lot of people do it.
I know I don't care for John all that much, but I still ship John/Rodney. I think the reason why I can do it though, is because it's *canon* John I'm not crazy about. Once you get into fic though, it's like he's a different character. And author's have a chance to give us more history, and an inside view of his emotions. So I've come to love Fanon McShep, and I'll be totally honest here and say, especially this past season, I don't really see McShep in canon.
What about you guys?
And while we're on the topic,
equsscentric also said: What starts to get my hackles up is that many people, for some reason,seem to feel that they have to praise Rodney at John's expense. Rodney being rude is "snarky" and fun, while John being rude makes him an asshole. Why is it more acceptable in Rodney but not in John? It's all in perception, and the fandom's perception is skewed toward Rodney at the other's expense.While I can't disagree that fandom, especially the fics I search out, have that skewed perception, I don't know how out of line it is. I've spoken to
paradise_city about this in the past (seriously, what aspect of SGA haven't we discussed :P) but part of the reason why I feel ok in doing this, is because of what we see in canon. Yes Rodney is rude, and sarcastic and has flaws and makes mistakes, but they call him on it in canon. They don't really do that with the other characters. The best example I can think of is, of course, Duranda.John woke up the Wraith, and just got a "It's not your fault". Carson killed half a planets population, and got a pat on the back. One of the things that got me the *most* about it though, is that near the end of that ep, we see Teyla come through the gate into the control room, and we can hear Elizabeth losing it, and totally reaming Rodney where everyone can hear. Now, she's gotten angry with John in the past, but she has always taken him aside and made her displeasure known with stony words and raised eyebrows, but with Rodney, she totally loses it. Rodney is the Chief of Science, and she totally dressed him down in front of some of his people and where anyone could hear about it. Rodney is going to have enough troubles with his staff getting over what he did, but how are any of them going to respect him, when they saw his superior show so much disrespect?
I don't blame Weir for yelling at him, but I do blame her for doing it in a public manner. At least Sheppard kept it at a private level once they were out of the heat.
Same thing goes with Rodney being an ass. We all know he can be an ass, but it's mostly because he's sort of oblivious about people, and can get really wrapped up in himself. We all know he acts this way, and acknowledge it. It's been acknowledged on the show, both by other characters (Sam has said the most outright, but Weir has with raised eyebrows and disapproval, John has with looks and head slaps and I'm sure the others have indicated to Rodney when he's been out of line too) and by Rodney himself (confessions to Sam and Jeanie, and even himself in Grace Under Pressure).
John on the other hand, I think Elizabeth was the only one who really called John on his actions, and that had more to do with command issues than his behaviour. John can be outright mean to others, especially Rodney. I think it's made worse by the fact that John does know people, and knows Rodney, and he has to know as he's being an ass what he's doing, and it's effects on people. Or at the very least should recognize the fact soon after doing it. Also, they never acknowledge John as being an ass on the show. You never see the members of his team call him on it, like they will for McKay sometimes. You never see John react when he says things like that. And it's further aggravated to me, because John has the reputation of being all smooth and lovable, completely ignoring that aspect of his character. Fandom takes Rodney's flaws and makes them better, that's what we're supposed to do, but we seem to as a whole, ignore John's a lot more (granted I know there are fics out there, especially set after Trinity where John is a complete asshole, but those are just as bad, since they ignore John's other qualites).
I think the Rodney fans feel the need to pick on these points, not just with John, but with other characters, because Rodney is the only one who really gets picked on in canon. Carson and to some extent Elizabeth had some personal self doubt, and Carson called Elizabeth on the whole Allies with the Wraith thing, but other than that, I can't think of anything. But still, even when the others are being called on what they do, they seem to still get respect from those doing it, whereas I don't always get that feeling when they call Rodney on his shit.
Please feel free to disagree with me, and I'd love some examples, because it could totally be selective memory on my part. And
equsscentric I hope you realize I'm not trying to pick on you, but you just got me thinking, and said it in a really clear way for me to respond to.ETA:
equuscentric would like to add that she does love Rodney if anyone where to think that (although personally, I didn't get any Rodney hate vibes of what she said, and you'll certainly see that if you read the thread linked above), you can read her response here.
Re: Oh, John
Oh, I don't think John has to be perfect and follow all of Miss Manners rules around Rodney. I think John would love being able to speak his mind on a number of things with Rodney, like saying how he really feels about certain people things. Or enjoys egging Rodney on when he starts acting really badly, because he finds people's reaction to Rodney's personality amusing, but that said, I don't think it gives him carte blache to act in any way he feels. The main things I've seen him do to really hurt Rodney come down to trust and loyalty. Rodney is an intensely loyal person, so seeing John do things like stick up with Col. Ellis (over Elizabeth and himself) is something that would really hurt Rodney. And while I think Rodney would respect John's right to make his own decisions (even if he thinks John is wrong, and an idiot for thinking so) the fact that John never stops to explain to Rodney why he sides with Ellis, but instead makes jokes about it... that's insensitive to a level that's hurtful to Rodney. Rodney may be insensitive in general, but I think he really tries when it comes to the people he cares about, and if he does trip up, he'll bend over backwards to try and fix it. Look at how he acts around Jeannie? The kind of abuse he just takes from her, because she says he needs to make it up to her.
The trust thing is a bit more complicated, I think John still holds Duranda against Rodney. To Rodney his intelligence is his most important characteristic, it's what he draws on as most important about himself and it's his main weapon and tool in this new and dangerous galaxy. So when John tells/shows Rodney that he doesn't trust him on intellectual matters it hits Rodney where it hurts the most. Especially since John (and the others, but John is often the one saying it) seems to demand so much from Rodney's intelligence, often the impossible. The perfect example of this being the season 4 opening eps, where we see John constantly stopping Rodney, who doesn't have the time to stop, to get him to explain what is going on, like he has to constantly watch Rodney to make sure he's doing the right thing and not getting them into more trouble. Or when the shield started to collapse he demanded that Rodney slow it down so they could save the people out there (which was impossible, making it feel like it was Rodney's fault for not being able to pull something impossible off this time), or even when he was adding the hyperdrive to the jumper, and I think it was John who asked if it was going to work and Rodney started to say, that he thinks it will, but he can't guarantee that it will, but he was cut off and made to say just a yes or no, so that if anything did go wrong, everything would be back on Rodney, despite the fact that he tried to explain that he can't be held responsible. John seems to push Rodney a lot when it comes to his intelligence, sometimes it's pushing him further, but sometimes it's pushing Rodney down, and John never seems to do the pushing in a kind way.
I've seen several people mention (here and elsewhere) that a lot of John's character development has been due to JF's acting, which boggles me. I think JF is a pretty mediocre actor,
I tend to be with you on JF not being a stellar actor (god, I can't enjoy Doppelganger, no matter how much other fangirls squee over the slashiness, because I just can't get past JFs horrible acting in that ep :S), but I can still see people attributing John's development to him. Not least because from what I've heard, JF is the one in there pestering the writers to give John the kind of episodes that allow character development.