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SGA Season 4
Can I just say, it's really weird watching the episode without the sound being finished. I mean in the little "Last time on Stargate Atlantis" bit in the intro the would show the explosion of the beam hitting the city, and you'd *see* everything blow up, but there isn't any sound. :P
Also, for later sound effects you could hear one of the crew offstage yelling "Bam" or "do do do" or "Ahhh" as the case required. Very amusing.
Can I just say, that without background noise and dramatic music to back him John sounds like a *complete* dork. So, so, dorky.
Also, have to wonder if TPTB were around last April for all the race discussions that went on, because I have never seen the Atlantis personal looking so multicultural. There were flags from all over on shoulders in the first ep.
There are a lot of people who are indifferent to Weir, and a lot of people really upset that she's leaving the show, but to be honest? Her storyline is pretty damn kick ass. I don't think I could have been nearly as upset about Carson dying if he had gotten a story line like that. d
Also, brings about the chance for Evil!Replicator!Weir. I think that this is maybe the best storyline the Weir character has gotten.
The shipper in me though, was suddenly seeing Weir/pretty much everyone. For a second there, I though Ronon was going to *kiss* her. And John was *crying*. Rodney was breaking all these rules to save her, and Teyla was *there* for her; saying the risks were worth it.
It really kind of annoyed me how Sheppard was acting. Throwing his weight around, saying he was in charge now that Weir isn't. I mean, all he was doing was getting in the way of Rodney, and it wasn't really a military situation, it was a scientist situation. Rodney so should have been the one in charge.
It was awesome to see so much Zelenka. Although the background tech yelling "Bam Bam" as he got shot detracted a little for the situation.
Overall, great episode.
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paradise_city what was that moment you were talking about?
Also, for later sound effects you could hear one of the crew offstage yelling "Bam" or "do do do" or "Ahhh" as the case required. Very amusing.
Can I just say, that without background noise and dramatic music to back him John sounds like a *complete* dork. So, so, dorky.
Also, have to wonder if TPTB were around last April for all the race discussions that went on, because I have never seen the Atlantis personal looking so multicultural. There were flags from all over on shoulders in the first ep.
There are a lot of people who are indifferent to Weir, and a lot of people really upset that she's leaving the show, but to be honest? Her storyline is pretty damn kick ass. I don't think I could have been nearly as upset about Carson dying if he had gotten a story line like that. d
Also, brings about the chance for Evil!Replicator!Weir. I think that this is maybe the best storyline the Weir character has gotten.
The shipper in me though, was suddenly seeing Weir/pretty much everyone. For a second there, I though Ronon was going to *kiss* her. And John was *crying*. Rodney was breaking all these rules to save her, and Teyla was *there* for her; saying the risks were worth it.
It really kind of annoyed me how Sheppard was acting. Throwing his weight around, saying he was in charge now that Weir isn't. I mean, all he was doing was getting in the way of Rodney, and it wasn't really a military situation, it was a scientist situation. Rodney so should have been the one in charge.
It was awesome to see so much Zelenka. Although the background tech yelling "Bam Bam" as he got shot detracted a little for the situation.
Overall, great episode.
paradise_city what was that moment you were talking about?
SGA S4
1. The Weir storyline? Awesome. And I'm a big fan of Carter and all the Carter/McKay stuff, so it was really nice to see her. And her dorky scientist friend, to. He makes the Atlantis people look amazingly well-adjusted in comparison.
Word on the Weir/everyone bit, as well. I've always enjoyed a bit of Weir/Sheppard, so it was really touching to see John getting emotional over her situation and struggling with trying to keep cool.
2. Speaking of Sheppard, he was did have a bit of a bug up his butt, didn't he? It was nice to see him and Rodney go head to head (and Rodney refuse him -- go Rodney!) and then have them apologize so quickly (which was interesting; I'm still not sure what I think about that). I'm hoping we'll see some fallout from John rushing in to take control. It would be nice to set up a little subplot of command issues.
Right, sorry -- apparently when it comes to commenting with you, I can blab forever. To answer your question, it was the Rodney calling John by his name moment I was referring to. That seems to be a huge issue with some of the fangirls, so I'm sure they'll appreciate it.
Re: SGA S4
Yeah, I thought that the episodes were awesome, I had a few issues, but over all they were *great*.
The absence of sound and the random "BAM! BAM!"s (which were hilarious didn't disrupt your viewing experience too much?
Oh yeah, totally hilarious. And while it would disrupt the storyline in the fact that I'd sometimes laugh, or be throw, I don't think it really detracted from the story itself.
I was afraid to watch them because... well I guess it's just my natural reaction to avoid spoilers. Once I stopped thinking of these as spoilers but as actual episodes, well I caved. I'm still really looking forward to seeing the real episodes though, I wonder if some of my current thoughts won't change once I do.
For example, I found John to be incredibly dorky. He'd do things or say things that just had me rolling my eyes (and I'll admit, that while I love fandom!John, I don't really care for canon!John). I wonder if some of those scenes though will be less dorky once you have the dramatic music to back it up, since right now he often just looked squinty instead of emotional.
1. The Weir storyline? Awesome.
I know! If they had given him as decent a story line, I don't know if I could have been as upset about Carson dying. I really hope that they don't just leave her hanging like they did Ford. I think it would be awesome if they could turn Weir evil. Have her work with the Replicators to try and get rid of Atlantis, but have her all conflicted because she wants to protect her people. It would be *awesome*. I don't think they're going to do it though, since she's only in something like 4 episodes this season :-/
And I'm a big fan of Carter and all the Carter/McKay stuff, so it was really nice to see her.
See, I was one of those people who was all "NO! Not Carter!" and I'll admit, I'm still a little... hesitant about it.
...
As a huge Carson fan, I lost a lot of respect and faith in the writers of SGA after that episode. Combined with some of the bad eps like Irresistible, Irresponsible, and I wasn't too impressed with the Michael episode at the end, I just didn't trust the writers to be able to handle Carter, and certainly not the Carter/McKay dynamic.
I mean, SG-1 set a precedent. Rodney comes in loud and bumbling, Carter is cool, ok, and correct. Even in Pegasus Project when Rodney *was* right, they still left him loud and bumbling, and... a character I didn't much like.
And Cater herself... first off, I should say, I'm not really in the SG-1 fandom, and while I have seen all of the episodes, I watched them all at once (if you can count a couple months worth "at once" :P).
Carter's character never really "popped" with me. She had so many story lines over the years that were just about her, or featured her prominently, but I really have to think to remember them. I guess Sam has always been one of those characters that was just *there* for me. She was the smart one, giving the techno babble, but even when she had to struggle to find an answer, it never seemed like a struggle to me. Things just seem to come easily to Sam, and I think her team takes her at face value. She feels flat to me.
I also find it a bit hard to believe that she'd just be handed Atlantis. I mean, yeah, she's military, but also a scientist, so resume wise it sort of makes sense, but...
I mean they tried to make Sam a leader in Season 8 when she took over SG-1, and it didn't work. She was all insecure, and the fans didn't like it (I actually loved season 8, but a lot of fans didn't, or so I've been told). She didn't have the flare for leadership that they wanted. And what does it say for Sam's leadership skills that Cameron was given leadership of SG-1? I mean, Sam out ranked him by a lot. She had been a Lt. Colonel longer, and had waayyyy more experience than he did, but still, she kept her position as second fiddle. Why is she suddenly capable of leadership now?
Re: SGA S4
I'm also afraid of how she's going to effect Atlantis' current dynamic. I mean, she's not a civilian, so she's going to be the highest ranking military officer (if you'll notice she's now a full Lieutenant, John commented on it at the end of 402), and that means John's being demoted. And even if he stays as the guy who runs the military, he's never going to have the authority he once had, since Weir had to defer to him during military emergencies, Carter won't have to though.
Carter is also going to be in charge of the scientists, which is Rodney's territory, and we all know he's an idiot around her. How the hell is Carter coming going to effect Rodney? Is he suddenly going to be demoted to that guy that that's smart but not smart enough for Carter? Is she suddenly going to be stepping in and messing with how Rodney has things set up?
When I first heard about all the cast changes, I was worried, because, as I said, I didn't trust the writers, and I was afraid that it wasn't going to be *my* Atlantis come season 4. It would be Atlantis SG-1 or some such crap. Personally, I was really disappointed when Atlantis' isolation from earth didn't last a whole season. I really wanted Atlantis to be completely separate from SG-1.
Seeing the first two episodes, has at least allowed me to give the writers a chance to show me that they aren't going to fuck this up.
Word on the Weir/everyone bit, as well.
I know! I like to ship Ronon/Weir, and when he went into visit her and leaned down, I almost *died* since I thought he was going to kiss her. And how he kept watching over her? *love*
I've always enjoyed a bit of Weir/Sheppard, so it was really touching to see John getting emotional over her situation and struggling with trying to keep cool.
In that moment, I totally saw how people could ship the two (it's not a ship I can easily believe, if only because of their positions) but John kept fucking up that idea later in the show when he's like "Kill her!" and not even willing to *try* to save her; to take a chance. Actually Sheppard was the biggest issue I had with these eps.
Speaking of Sheppard, he was did have a bit of a bug up his butt, didn't he?
So much *yes*. He was totally power tripping, and getting in the *way*. I didn't like it. For a minute there, when Rodney refused him, I though he might hit him, or go in and kill Elizabeth himself. All those fics where John goes crazy? Moments like that are what inspire such fics.
and then have them apologize so quickly (which was interesting; I'm still not sure what I think about that).
Yeah, I'm not sure either. I mean, really? I think it was more John who should have been apologizing, actions wise. He had no knowledge of what the situation was. Rodney did. In his expert opinion the risk was ok. John came in throwing his weight around when he shouldn't have.
On the other hand, Rodney did concede leadership to John earlier in the show, and they were in a tight situation that really required a strong chain of command, and Rodney broke that.
Also, how sincere did that apology sound? "We have to work together so... so.. so. I'm sorry"
I'm hoping we'll see some fallout from John rushing in to take control.
Well, with Carter taking over,I'm sure there will be some. But I'd be way more interested to see the fall out between him and Rodney because of it. I mean, he totally disregarded Rodney, which isn't good leadership. It kind of felt like that time shortly after Trinity, where Sheppard didn't trust McKay.
But, knowing the writers and their history of emotional continuity... I won't hold my breath.
Right, sorry -- apparently when it comes to commenting with you, I can blab forever
Umm, yeah. It's obviously all you :P
Seriously though, blab all you want, I'm having tons of fun :D
To answer your question, it was the Rodney calling John by his name moment I was referring to. That seems to be a huge issue with some of the fangirls, so I'm sure they'll appreciate it.
Ahh, I rewatched 320 before watching the new eps, and totally had the scene in my head of just before John went to fly the city, but then realized that it was the wrong episode, and couldn't think of anything else.
Re: SGA S4
That kind of makes me wonder if JF is the key to the John Sheppard mystery. I vacillate between loving, hating, and just not getting Sheppard at all and a lot of people seem to think it's as much JF as it is Sheppard. Without all the accoutrements of a finished episode, he seemed like, well...not the world's greatest actor. I also found it hilarious that while he's the one who seems to detest looping the most, his was the dialogue I constantly had trouble discerning.
I've never seen SG-1, save for the occasional episode DH was in, so I know next to nothing about Carter. I'm sure that translates into much lower expectations for her, but I can definitely see your concerns. It may just come down to the writer for any given episode, since they don't seem to have the most cohesive of visions when it comes to individual characters.
This has really gotten me thinking about Carter, though. On the one hand, I love that Rodney has finally come up against something unattainable for him and that it happens to be something as ridiculous as a woman. Grand unified theory, Nobel prize? Got it in the bag. Women generally and Carter specifically? So not in the bag. And while I love that idea, I'm starting to wonder if I like the idea of Carter more than Carter herself. Because honestly, I can't quite see what Rodney sees in her (perhaps because I don't know the character all that well). It could go either way, I suppose, but I'm crossing my fingers.
Re: SGA S4
Well for the most part, I'm always here, so feel free to strike up a conversation whenever. :) As you can see, I'm quite responsive :P
That kind of makes me wonder if JF is the key to the John Sheppard mystery.
Hmm, I've never really thought of it. I haven't seen JF in a lot of other things, but he was awesome in Thought Crimes. And I'm pretty sure I liked him in that ep of CSI...
I think, for me, it's more how the character is written than JFs acting. When I think back on Sheppard's character, and how JF portrays him, there are a lot of really good scenes. Ones where he'd goofy, or serious, or casual, and JF handles them. It's more, for me at least, how flighty a character John is that turns me off of his character. I mean, he'll be all geeky and Rodney's best friend one minute, and then biting and mean to him the next. Or super soldier, or flirty man. John as a character has too many faces, and often not enough transition between them to make me follow him. Instead he comes off as an asshole.
Switching fandoms, Don, in Numb3rs does that sometimes. I mean I *love* Don, he's the reason I watch the show, but every once in a while he'll do something that makes me go :S. He'll yell at Charlie, or how quickly he turned on Colby, or will just be dismissive of something important and it totally turns me off his character. I have trouble believing it's him. John does that too, but he does it so much more often.
I've never seen SG-1, save for the occasional episode DH was in
Wow, had I known that, I wouldn't have rambled on so much about her character. Sorry about that.
I'm starting to wonder if I like the idea of Carter more than Carter herself. Because honestly, I can't quite see what Rodney sees in her (perhaps because I don't know the character all that well).
As someone who watched all the episodes... The writers seem to love Carter, and they throw all these storylines and love interests at her, but... well, hardly any of them really resonated with me. In fact some of her cooler episodes were where she *wasn't* Carter (IMO). Carter kind of comes off as a bit Mary Sue-ish. She's always professionally perfect and saves the day, and she has had more love interests than any other character on the show (they all seem to die on her though). That's why the Rodney character was created. You've seen that episode where he first appears? There's a scientific crisis, and Carter needs to save the day, but the higher ups send in this inexperienced guy to help, who just ends up getting in the way instead. He's all arrogant, and Carter through her brilliance shows him up and then has him exiled to Siberia. Rodney having the hots for her was just another way to show off what a sleeze ball he was supposed to be, and they’ve carried it on.
Re: SGA S4
That's my one definite fear. For one, I don't want the lovely McKay/Sheppard moments, shippy or otherwise, to be tossed aside to make room for the Carter/McKay moments, however much I'm looking forward to them. And for two, I'd love to get some clarification on Atlantis's hierarchy. It seemed strange to me that Sheppard would take over from Weir instead of Rodney, and even stranger that that would be perpetuated with Carter in charge. Is she going to take over thing or just handle the administrative side as Weir did and leave Sheppard and McKay in charge of their respective personnel? That's doubtful, but then how is she going to be in charge and also on missions, which is what I'm assuming is going to happen? It seems like no matter which way they go, there's going to be a lot of shoehorning.
That was what sucked, that callback to Trinity. It's always bothered me that Trinity has really come to haunt Rodney when a: it was his first fuck up after having saved everyone's collective ass dozens of times and b: hello, Sheppard woke up the freaking Wraith, does no one remember that? And it's just shitty of John, as Rodney's friend if not as his team leader, to keep coming back to that. Lesson learned, move on.
And I don't know if that's uneven writing or just more of the John Sheppard mystery. Do the writers just have trouble with Sheppard or is Sheppard really just loosely hinged? (See: Epiphany, where John, a trained military man, totally flipped his shit and shot himself in the damnfool foot after being alone for less than a day.) I will never understand him, not ever.
Oh, McKay. I totally couldn't tell if that was a half-ass apology or a heartfelt McKayan apology. <3
I think I'll have to scout around for some more info on Carter now. Not being an SG-1 fan is kinda turning into a handicap here.
Re: SGA S4
I know! I mean, it's obvious that they *don't* have a command structure in place. If you think back to The Long Goodbye, when Weir and John get taken over Rodney asks if he should be in charge when Caldwell takes control. And think of the opening of season 3, when all of the commanding staff were out *Teyla* was in charge. Not that I don't think she's a good leader, but come on, as if an alien would *ever* make it into the chain of command.
And in this case, Rodney so should have been in charge if only because it was a *scientific* crisis. John pulling him aside and demanding answers just wastes Rodney's time. I know that they put that in so we, the audience, know what the heck is going on, but that part drove me crazy the most. Weir always managed to do it in an unobtrusive way, but John kept making Rodney stop what he was doing, or distracting him when time was of the essence. And not trusting Rodney's work? Grrr. Again, the changing faces of John that makes me not like him.
Is she going to take over thing or just handle the administrative side as Weir did and leave Sheppard and McKay in charge of their respective personnel?
I hope so. If that happens, then the worse that's going to happen is that the boys have to report to her, and John won't have as much leeway in pulling stupid stunts in the name of "a military situation". Actually that could be kind of cool. To see John take control like he always does and then have Carter smack him down for it. Or not, I'm not sure.
That's doubtful, but then how is she going to be in charge and also on missions, which is what I'm assuming is going to happen?
Really? I hadn't assumed that at all. I kind of thought she'd get as involved as Weir did (which admittedly was more than Hammond ever did).
It's always bothered me that Trinity has really come to haunt Rodney when a: it was his first fuck up after having saved everyone's collective ass dozens of times and b: hello, Sheppard woke up the freaking Wraith, does no one remember that?
I know! And Carson managed to doom an entire *planet*. Weir and Carson did that whole unethical thing to Michael. I mean, when you think about it, Carson screwed up way more than Rodney ever did, but everyone still trusted him. John's also done a lot of stupid fucked up things, but he always lands on his feet and gets off with a slap on the wrist. I mean, come on, he cold bloodedly killed like 50 Genii. No one has even *mentioned* it since.
And it's just shitty of John, as Rodney's friend if not as his team leader, to keep coming back to that.
Also, honestly? How can they work together if he keeps bringing it up? Especially since he seems to encourage Rodney's reckless behaviour all the time. I mean, it's beginning to get a bit old, where when Rodney says he can't do it, John *makes* him do it. Also, one day it's going to backfire on them, and I can so see John blaming Rodney and holding it over his head.
Do the writers just have trouble with Sheppard or is Sheppard really just loosely hinged?
I've seen a few interesting fics out there where it's the latter. To be honest though, I think it's actually the former, but it certainly comes off to me as the latter.
Let's look at the evidence here:
-Mad Genii killing spree
-Always running off to do whatever despite orders (Afghanistan, Hot Zone, The Return, etc.)
-Suicidal.
-Running after Cheya (or however you spell her name)
-Crazy mood swings
-*Having* to be in control
-Holding grudges to the end of time.
Oh, McKay. I totally couldn't tell if that was a half-ass apology or a heartfelt McKay an apology. <3
Yeah, the words sucked but Rodney doesn't really do apologies....
I think I'll have to scout around for some more info on Carter now. Not being an SG-1 fan is kinda turning into a handicap here.
If you do go and watch them, keep an eye out for the episode where Carter starts dating this Ancient that builds a Stargate in her basement.
Originally David Hewlett was supposed to play that Ascended being. I find that really amusing, but am glad it didn't go through, because I can't see anyone but David playing Rodney.
Re: SGA S4
Oh, I'd be all about that. On the one hand, I dig John's laissez faire attitude about everything because really, what are the operating protocols for a space expedition? I don't think SG-1 was exactly a model of sticking to the letter. On the other hand, he is the military commander and it would be nice to see him get some flak for making stupid decisions. And he certainly makes his share.
Wow. I never quite thought about it that way. The way John amps Rodney up and stresses him out to solve a crisis has always niggled at me, but I think it's actually the larger issue you mentioned that's at the center of it all. (This is my favorite part of fandom discussion, when someone else is able to crystallize something I might have been thinking but was unable to put in words -- thanks for that!)
The other thing that's always bothered be about that dynamic is that John is sort of rough with Rodney emotionally. I'm thinking that it's probably not a bad idea to be nice or even suck up a bit to your resident genius because it's your resident genius who can fuck you all up. Now that we've seen he's capable of defying John, there's no telling what he might do if he feels the situation warrants it. No one can outhink him, so he holds the ultimate power when it comes to Atlantis. I'd love to see an evil!Rodney episode just for kicks, because they'd really be up a creek of Rodney ever decided he didn't want to play nice.
I agree, but I really enjoy the crazy!Sheppard characterization. What's always intrigued me is that the episode where John was most whacked (Epiphany) was the one JF supposedly had a hand in. It makes me wonder what JF really thinks about Sheppard.
You can't be serious. This happens? (Also, oh, Rodney! You never really had a chance to start with, but you certainly can't compete with an Ancient! Sad.)
Re: SGA S4
Yeah, just, Weir let him get away with shit because she didn't want to get him in trouble (think of the Cheya ep where she let him go because she knew she couldn't stop him and didn't want to have him break a direct order).
Which oooh, brings up a side rant. Every time Weir took John down a step, she always did it in private; behind closed doors. I assume she did this because as military head he needed the respect of his people and she didn't want to upset that. But in Trinity, after Doranda, we see Weir screaming at Rodney in the middle of the gate room where everyone can hear. I would think that respect for Rodney would be just as important. I mean, he's the one saving people's asses at the end of most days. What a double standard.
The way John amps Rodney up and stresses him out to solve a crisis has always niggled at me, but I think it's actually the larger issue you mentioned that's at the center of it all.
It was fun in Inferno when John was being all obvious about it, but it's stopped being funny. There's the typical Rodney bluster, but I think Rodney had gotten to a stage in his life where he's self confident enough to not pull those kinds of stunts in an emergency anymore.
And while I would kind of like to see an ep like I described, where Rodney says he can't do something, no one believes him, but it turns out he's right, I'm also kind of afraid of such an episode because of how the others, specifically John would react. If John *still* hasn't gotten over Trinity, then how would he recover from something like that? It makes me feel sad for Rodney, because things like this just kind of drill home the fact that he's loved for his brain. I would like to think his friends like him for more than that, but sometimes their actions? don't say that. If something like that hypothetical episode ever happened, I would *love* to see something like Rodney being all upset about letting everyone down, but everyone coming around him to show that it doesn't matter.
This is my favorite part of fandom discussion, when someone else is able to crystallize something I might have been thinking but was unable to put in words
Yeah, this whole thing has had me thinking about the show way more than I normally do, and it's nice to finally clarify some of the things I'd felt but hadn't taken the time to really think about. :) Plus I'm having a lot of fun.
The other thing that's always bothered be about that dynamic is that John is sort of rough with Rodney emotionally.
Yeah, which is what kind of makes me think that he only likes Rodney for his brain. I mean there's so much canon that would point to him liking Rodney more than that, but... there's still that niggling bit of doubt.
I think it's especially cruel, since it's pretty obvious to anyone who looks that Rodney isn't the most emotionally stable person. As I once read someone saying, he's got a superiority complex a mile wide to hide his inferiority complex. Rodney kind of hero worships John as, like, an older brother. He's totally changed who he is, and while I think he likes who he is more now, I have no doubt that a lot of those changes were done so he could better fit John's ideal of a good friend.
Now that we've seen he's capable of defying John, there's no telling what he might do if he feels the situation warrants it.
Oh! If only the writers would *do* anything with it! I suppose that's what fanfic is for....
I'd love to see an evil!Rodney episode just for kicks
Yeah, something like The Long Goodbye, where for an episode Rodney goes evil :P
It makes me wonder what JF really thinks about Sheppard.
For sure, because I don't know if the lines on their own would really make John sound as crazy. It's definitely in the actions and the hard glint in his eyes.
Re: SGA S4
You can't be serious. This happens?
Yep! :P What was really funny is at the end of the episode the guy goes back to living with the other ascended ancients, but comes back in season 9 or ten. As like a 12 year old, who still is in love with Carter and she's totally weirded out by it :P (not that I can blame her)
Also, oh, Rodney! You never really had a chance to start with, but you certainly can't compete with an Ancient!
To be honest I think the Ancient guy always freaked Sam out a bit because he was all "I love you so much! Even though my body is so you it can't hold an erection for more than 5 minutes!" Sam's definitely had more serious love interests. And now I need to go dig them up and suggest them for your recent post. :P
Re: SGA S4
I have tried so hard to figure out why this is, because I think John could be one of those characters I fall head over heels for if I could just get a read on him, but I can't. Who John is in any given episode seems to be a combination of what the story calls for, who wrote the script, and some other indefinable quantity, like what JF had for dinner 37 days before the first full moon of the month the script was written.
Don and John, yes. I made a post last season sometime about how similar they really were. (Or actually, I might have just been mocking their hair and pants, but meant to write a serious post about how similar they are.) What's different for me is that the writers can really redeem Don. I was incredibly impressed at the end of last season when the writers showed some of the positive changes in Don as a result of his being in therapy, and it just bowled me over. Don's a bit mercurial too, but the writers do a much better job of justifying it to the point that I can usually buy it. Plus, I just love Don. I don't really have that kind of attachment to John.
Switching gears back to SGA now. Personally, the Siberia thing has always bothered me. I only saw that episode once and with my goldfish memory I barely remember it, but it's so strange for McKay to go from "She exiled me!" to "I want to romp with her!" Granted, SG-1 McKay, early SGA McKay and later SGA McKay are all different people, but hello, she had him exiled. To Siberia. Because she didn't like him. Can we say bitch? And yet, I still kinda like her, mostly sight unseen. Oh, Stargate -- the tangled web you weave!
Re: SGA S4
Y'know, I must have watching that episode a dozen times for a fic I had to write and I never noticed that until you pointed it out. It's always bugged me that Weir is so easily walked all over (as it apparently bothered TH as well, judging from some remarks Martin Geo made in commentaries), particularly by Sheppard. I know he's supposed to be the devil may care, play by his own rules type, but Weir was willing to work him and he wasn't willing to work with her. There are times when John comes across as downright childish and petulant for a military commander. Although I suppose that's the 1,343,040 iteration of Who's John Sheppard Today?
And you've hit on one of my major character issues with Rodney: how self-aware is he? I can't ever make up my mind as to whether he really is so socially awkward and desperate for friendship that he doesn't see the way John & Co. use him or if he's self-aware and nonconformist enough that he just doesn't care. It plays out a lot in fic where people like to make Rodney out to be the world's most terrible boss, yelling at people and being short-tempered, etc. etc. and that's really not what we see. We've seen him be worried about his scientists even when they've screwed up and praising them when they haven't and missing them, to some extent, when they're not around. So someone who's a decent boss like that (not to mention someone who's been involved in a romantic relationship for a few solid months) has to be somewhat self-aware, but then he does these other ridiculous things like let John treat him poorly and completely miss the fact that people care about him and it just drives me crazy. Rodney is, in my mind, either completely unaware or completely self-aware and I just can't figure out which I buy most.
That's a really interesting take on things. I'll have to mull that over some. Because you're right -- a function of the show or not, so much of Rodney's world revolves around John. That's a really interesting dynamic.
Re: SGA S4
I can take how she handles Sheppard more easily than how the character is handled as a whole. I mean, she's supposed to be this great diplomat and negotiator, and that hardly ever presents itself. Wasn't it in the Game, where she was trying to negotiate a peace treaty between Sheppard's and McKay's people and after about five minutes she just kind of threw her hands up in despair? Come on. She was supposed to have been world famous for her skills, so much so that the President of the United States looked her up for *help* and she can't even help these people get over their petty differences? I also find Weirs character nieve in so many ways, and with the history we've been given of her she *shouldn't* be. Like she's not used to people disappointing her, or breaking the rules, or not listening to reason. If she was negotiating treaties in the Middle East, for the UN, how could she have not run across this kind of stuff before.
There are times when John comes across as downright childish and petulant for a military commander.
OMG yes. I know they had Weir fight to keep him in charge because it was needed for the show, but I have to wonder if it were real if she would have, although I could see her being worried over who they would choose to replace him.... And, I know it's been mentioned in fics a gazillion times, but in real life, how often does the military commander actually spend time on the front lines? In SG-1 Hammond went off world only a handful of times, the commander is supposed to be more of a paper pusher (I'm hoping that's what they'll do to Carter when she comes over). And from all accounts John isn't even all that good at paper work (remember his performance reviews?).
I can't ever make up my mind as to whether he really is so socially awkward and desperate for friendship that he doesn't see the way John & Co. use him or if he's self-aware and nonconformist enough that he just doesn't care.
I think he cares, but he's probably spent his whole life with people judging him on his brain. Kids wanting to be his friend for projects, or to get his "help" on homework; bullies beating him up. Colleagues jealous of his work and brilliance, others wanting a chance to learn from him. I think his personality grew from that. HE made himself abrasive so that he's *know*. He would have an excuse for those who hate him, and it would give him a buffer to help him realize that those that like him, probably aren't there for *him*. So he's used to people using him.
With Atlantis though, with John, I think he kind of lets his guards down and lets himself forget that they mostly just want his brain. But every once in a while, you can see Rodney's hurt shining through. The most obvious example is McKay and Mrs. Miller. We see how hurt he is to see his team interacting so casually with Rod. I think though, he's more afraid of being alone than of being hurt by them. I know that *I* do that sometimes. I make excuses for my best friend when she hurts me, I put up with things that I sometimes shouldn't, because I feel I need her more than she needs me, and don't want to rock the boat. I think that's the way it is with Rodney. (I can't tell you how long it took me to write this, and how many times I deleted and had to start over...).
That's a really interesting take on things.
I think you're always affected by your friends, and the closer you are the more you may change. A lot of the time the changes are ones that bring you closer to who you really are, or have you doing things that you enjoy more, it's not always a bad thing, but it makes me wonder if John knows how much power he has over Rodney. Because he can be so careless with him, and if he knows, that just makes John a huge asshole, but other times he seems to *use* that power over Rodney, and well, those times often make me think he's an asshole, so, hm....
Re: SGA S4
Oh, they mentioned that in commentary and it burned me up. The director said something akin to, "Well, I know that Weir's supposed to be a great negotiator even though she's failing miserably at it here, but hey, that was the story needed." I wanted to hit him in his face for that. Gah.
Hmm. So you think Rodney's social needs are important? I tend to think that Rodney probably doesn't mind being alone and enjoys the pleasure of his own company to that of others, but that may be the "push them away before they push me" aspect you mentioned. I'd have to think about that some more.
And this is mostly why I kept this comment sitting in my inbox for response -- thanks for sharing that information about your friendship with me. It's not easy to admit things like that to someone you don't know very well, so thanks. :)
FWIW, I've been in a friendship like that, but as the other party. And when I finally realized what was going on, that my friend thought for whatever reason that she wasn't good enough for or that I could do without her, I was really surprised. I had never thought her expendable, but I looking back I realized I'd probably inadvertently taken advantage of her willingness to please me in order to ensure I stuck around. (And I'm not implying that's analogous to your friendship at all, just that it was my interpretation of our situation.)
Friendships are so complicated, more so than romantic relationships in some ways, and I can see aspects of that with John and Rodney. John really does take advantage of him and Rodney lets him, probably because of that hero worship you mentioned (and the more I think about that, the more I really see it). Sometimes I really want them to go to couple's counseling even though they're not a couple because some aspects of their relationship can be so WTFy. (On a side note, I'd love to see more fic where John and/or Rodney are on different SGA teams, because those really exploit that WTF factor to both humorous and tender ends.)
So, yes. Thanks for sharing that personal bit with me. :)
Re: SGA S4
You're right, that just makes things sooooo much worse. It's one thing if they've just kind of forgotten or something, but to just... not care? *head desk*
So you think Rodney's social needs are important?
Yeah, I think he's gotten used to people. He's gotten used to having friends. I think he'd *rather* be able to go on without them, but when it comes right down to it, he'd now miss them a *lot* if they were gone.
...Not that we were able to tell from Carson going... Grr.
thanks for sharing that information about your friendship with me. It's not easy to admit things like that to someone you don't know very well, so thanks. :)
I actually find it slightly easier to tell these things to people on-line than I do to people in RL. That layer of anonymity and biased opinions helps. :)
I think the thing with me and Sara is... we met at university, and had a lot of other friends there, but we were always closest. Then we went to China together, and I think it just being the two of us, I got on her nerves a bit. When we came back though, I went back to Ottawa, where I had grown up, and she went back to university, where she had a lot of other friends. I don't have many friends around her, so want Sara to be there for me, but she's crazy busy in general, and has friends that are closer, so it's kind of a hassle to do things with me. She doesn't get as lonely as I do though, so she sees the hassle as much bigger than I do.
She's also the kind of person that spreads herself really thin and tries to please everyone. But instead she kind of ends up pleasing no one, or not giving the people around her the time they want/need. Like, I would go up and visit her on some of my weekends, but she'd be working all day Saturday that we'd have only a few hours together instead of a weekend. And while I understand she needs to work, it just makes the 10 hour drive to visit her seem like a waste. Especially since the last time that happened, she ended up leaving me alone and hanging out with her room mates at one point. :S
Re: SGA S4
It sounds like you really make an effort to keep things going with her. I can't imagine driving 10 hours to see someone. Eight's my limit, and that's only because my friend was alone for Thanksgiving. Hi, I'm Summer, and I abhor travelling.
But yes, word on the lovely anonymity of the internet and word on the difficulty of friendships. When they're good they're great, but even when they're only so-so, they can be terrible. Relationships can be so difficult.
Re: SGA S4
That's fine, I don't expect you to remember all the details of my life. If it makes you feel any better, when I was doing my RL meme and writing letters, I wrote this one long letter about visiting Kingston, and thinking of them, since they lived there, and then when I went to mail it, I saw they lived in Toronto. *head desk*
I can't imagine driving 10 hours to see someone.
Well, 10 hours round trip, probably closer to 9. And I generally visit my sister while I'm down there.
Re: SGA S4
Ah ha ha ha, that last line totally made me laugh. And you know what? It's so true, especially the part about story lines/writers. John characters mood is just whatever. Like in 402. I don't know why he got *so* pissed. I mean, I can understand anger, but he was *livid*.
It's true, and weird at the same time. I don't care that much for John, but I am totally in love with Don.
I think that has to be it. I think the writers at Numb3rs do a much better job of showing that Don is stressed. SGA they make it all seem like it's the usual, and their jobs, and even McKay often doesn't come across as overly stressed (you just chalk it up to his personality, or heat of the moment). With Numb3rs though, you can really see them hurting. The scene of David and Colby getting drunk and Colby talking about Afghanistan comes to mind here.
Yeah, and I'm glad it wasn't just the one session, that they brought Charlie into it, that it seems (I hope!) to be a sort of ongoing thing. Again to compare to SGA, how big of a joke is Kate Heitmeyer (or however you spell it)? I mean, come on.
Oh part of the reason she was so happy he was exiled, was because Rodney had a thing for her before that. I think in their first meeting he leered at her and said he had a thing for "Dumb blonds". The next episode he was in, I can't totally remember, but I think he backed off a little bit, and tried to show his sensitive side (that's when he explained about his childhood, and playing the piano).
Well, to be fair, I don't think *she* specifically had him exiled. She just showed him up, which might have lead to the decision by the higher ups, and gloated a bit when he was told.
It all kind of comes back though, to how SG-1 are the typical heroes. They never do anything wrong, and when someone tries to disagree with them, they get shown up, out classed and punished for their actions. That's what McKay's character was at first, a foil(sp?) for SG-1.
Also, I'm trying this quote thing out for the first time, so if this comment gets to you twice, or is horribly mutilated, sorry. :S
Re: SGA S4
Yes, that's it's exactly! The SGA characters are a product of their states, while the Numbers characters are a product of their traits. That really does make all the difference. Thanks for crystallizing that for me. :)
Oh, that drives me crazy. Honestly, I don't expect to see psychology represented accurately or well on television, but there's such potential on SGA. I've seen some excellent fics that include sessions with Heightmeyer and it works brilliantly. I'm biased, of course (that's my area of study), but there are several great ways it could be used on the show if Heightmeyer weren't so incompetent. But I try not to rant about it too much.
Ah, I didn't know that! Every time I've seen it referenced, I've (incorrectly, obviously) interpreted it to mean that she personally had him exiled. It all makes more sense now. Kind of.
The quote thing -- I'm using the Firefox extension (https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3903), actually, since LJ's quote function is useless. If it bugs you (it bugs some people -- something about too message boardy or something), let me know. I'm just trying to find ways to make LJ more easily readable since my vision sucks. :)
Re: SGA S4
It's so true too. I don't think Numb3rs ever tries to make it's characters seem *perfect* which Stargate does try and do. And it's even worse when watching SG-1 because they try too hard to pass them off as heroes that you sometimes stop thinking of them as human. For me at least.
Ah, I didn't know that! Every time I've seen it referenced, I've (incorrectly, obviously) interpreted it to mean that she personally had him exiled. It all makes more sense now. Kind of.
Yeah, Sam wasn't like "Mwa ha! I called in favours and off to Siberia you go!" Rodney had said that it was impossible to get Teal'c back after so much time, but Carter proved him wrong and broke the Russian's DHD while at it. To try and pacify the Russians the Americans said they'd send their Stargate expert to work with them. Except when the news was given to Rodney it was done in a smirking way like "This is your punishment" I think Sam may have been in the room, or else mentioned it to him afterwards, I don't clearly remember, but I know it was Hammond that told Rodney where he was going.
If it bugs you (it bugs some people -- something about too message boardy or something), let me know. I'm just trying to find ways to make LJ more easily readable since my vision sucks. :)
Oh doesn't bother me a bit. I just thought it was kind of cool, and would give it a try, but obviously I didn't have the correct tools. :P