![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Thinky Thoughts.
First off, Happy Birthday ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
_wwsd_! I hope you had a great day!
Next...
So, remember last week how I was mentioning feeling blue? Well, sometimes I just get into these moods, where I feel sad. If things are stressfull in my life then these moods can be blown into full out depression complete with suicidal thoughts and self harm, but a lot of the time, it just makes me want to cry. Normally what I'll do is go and find a really angsty fic, and cry over that, and feel better. This week I didn't though, so when my sister announced that she was pregnant, I cried over that. A lot.
I made the mistake of telling my mom that I was crying so much becuase I was feeling blue. And now... well she wants to *fix* it. I find this frustrating for a couple reasons.
1) She doesn't seem to realize that there's a difference between depression and PMS.
2) She tries to compair me to other people. My mom can also be very preachy when she wants to be. Which is often.
and 3) She wants me to go to the Dr.s about it. I really don't want to do this.
Last time I mentioned to my Dr. that I get depressed he put me on a series of drugs, even though I wasn't feeling depressed at the time, and it totally *fucked* my life up. It made me *really* depressed. When I was a teenager I had done stupid things like cutting, and ended up in the ER once after trying to kill myself, but since then, I had stopped. Until I was put on the stupid drugs, and now..? well, I do it more often then I'd like to admit. I'm off the drugs now, but the thought of going back on something really freaks me out. I don't remember really having these "blue" periods befre I took the drugs. I don't even know if these types of drugs can affect you is such a way, but, god, I'm really bad at taking drugs regularly. I can't even manage to stay on the pill for more than a few months, because I just end up forgetting to take the damn things. I can't stand the thought of becoming relient on drugs to get through the day, because I don't trust myself to stay on them. And what if they fuck me over more?
So, *everyone* remembers the whole race debate that went on earlier this year. I think about it quite a lot actually. It was the first time that I really got involved in a thing like this. I spent a *lot* of time reading what other people had to say, and then defending myself when I posted publicly about it on my LJ. I don't know, a lot of it stuck with me when going through fandom.
A lot of people would think that was good, and the whole point of having that debate, but I can't help but thing I'd be dissapointing them, because I tend to think of all the "side" arguments that went on. You know the ones that people would complain are either missing the point, or a weak attempt to change the point/subject.
For example, one of the stories that kept getting mentioned was String Theory bytoft_froggy because Teyla was simply Rodney's driver in the fic.
I hadn't read the fic at the time, but someone posted a podfic of it over at![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
sgapodfic so I finally listened to it today.
After reading it, and remembering what people were saying about it back when, I was really surprised at Teyla's part in the fic. Not because she was a driver, but because so many people tried to justify Teyla in that position by saying she was so much *more* than a driver to Rodney. Wha? She was barely in it? and one of the only scenes where she and Rodney spoke she was asking for a day off, much like Bob Cratchit asked Ebenezer Scrooge for Christmas off. I can totally see why people would be thrown off by Teyla's part in this fic.
The same thing happened with the original Barista!Ronon fic. So many people came to the author's defense saying that Ronon was a Big Important Character in the fic, and wasn't he *awesome* in his part? Ronon was barely in the fic, hadn't much to do with the story line, and you could have easily inserted a different character into that position and not changed the feel of the story one bit.
I don't know, to me, it sounds so much better to say, well this person was a secondary character to my story so just got shoved in, than to try and justify and/or hide the fact that they were just shoved in.
_wwsd_! I hope you had a great day!Next...
So, remember last week how I was mentioning feeling blue? Well, sometimes I just get into these moods, where I feel sad. If things are stressfull in my life then these moods can be blown into full out depression complete with suicidal thoughts and self harm, but a lot of the time, it just makes me want to cry. Normally what I'll do is go and find a really angsty fic, and cry over that, and feel better. This week I didn't though, so when my sister announced that she was pregnant, I cried over that. A lot.
I made the mistake of telling my mom that I was crying so much becuase I was feeling blue. And now... well she wants to *fix* it. I find this frustrating for a couple reasons.
1) She doesn't seem to realize that there's a difference between depression and PMS.
2) She tries to compair me to other people. My mom can also be very preachy when she wants to be. Which is often.
and 3) She wants me to go to the Dr.s about it. I really don't want to do this.
Last time I mentioned to my Dr. that I get depressed he put me on a series of drugs, even though I wasn't feeling depressed at the time, and it totally *fucked* my life up. It made me *really* depressed. When I was a teenager I had done stupid things like cutting, and ended up in the ER once after trying to kill myself, but since then, I had stopped. Until I was put on the stupid drugs, and now..? well, I do it more often then I'd like to admit. I'm off the drugs now, but the thought of going back on something really freaks me out. I don't remember really having these "blue" periods befre I took the drugs. I don't even know if these types of drugs can affect you is such a way, but, god, I'm really bad at taking drugs regularly. I can't even manage to stay on the pill for more than a few months, because I just end up forgetting to take the damn things. I can't stand the thought of becoming relient on drugs to get through the day, because I don't trust myself to stay on them. And what if they fuck me over more?
So, *everyone* remembers the whole race debate that went on earlier this year. I think about it quite a lot actually. It was the first time that I really got involved in a thing like this. I spent a *lot* of time reading what other people had to say, and then defending myself when I posted publicly about it on my LJ. I don't know, a lot of it stuck with me when going through fandom.
A lot of people would think that was good, and the whole point of having that debate, but I can't help but thing I'd be dissapointing them, because I tend to think of all the "side" arguments that went on. You know the ones that people would complain are either missing the point, or a weak attempt to change the point/subject.
For example, one of the stories that kept getting mentioned was String Theory by
toft_froggy because Teyla was simply Rodney's driver in the fic. I hadn't read the fic at the time, but someone posted a podfic of it over at
sgapodfic so I finally listened to it today. After reading it, and remembering what people were saying about it back when, I was really surprised at Teyla's part in the fic. Not because she was a driver, but because so many people tried to justify Teyla in that position by saying she was so much *more* than a driver to Rodney. Wha? She was barely in it? and one of the only scenes where she and Rodney spoke she was asking for a day off, much like Bob Cratchit asked Ebenezer Scrooge for Christmas off. I can totally see why people would be thrown off by Teyla's part in this fic.
The same thing happened with the original Barista!Ronon fic. So many people came to the author's defense saying that Ronon was a Big Important Character in the fic, and wasn't he *awesome* in his part? Ronon was barely in the fic, hadn't much to do with the story line, and you could have easily inserted a different character into that position and not changed the feel of the story one bit.
I don't know, to me, it sounds so much better to say, well this person was a secondary character to my story so just got shoved in, than to try and justify and/or hide the fact that they were just shoved in.
no subject
As for the fic thing...if I was writing an AU A/B shipper fic, and the canon show also had characters C, D, and E, and I had a little bit part or two, I would probably use C, D, or E's name and/or physiognomy for that bit part. Just because it's an AU of that fandom and I like to be inclusive. It wouldn't mean that I didn't have enought respect for C because I only gave them three lines. It would just mean I had a three line character and wanted to see C's name included in my story.
Granted, the author could have replaced driver!Teyla with, say, Jessica or Mabel and it wouldn't have made a bit of difference, but I don't think that means Tayla's being oppressed or anything. And as someone who was completely ripped into the very first time I posted a fic I wrote in a public forum, I can totally understand being on the defensive. Being attacked tends to make some people overcompensate while defending themselves, especially against something as hot-button as racism.
I hope that made sense. I've been typing all day and still have three hours of work left...at 9pm. *sigh*
no subject
See, that's my thoughts. Also, I hate that the Dr. that I would be seeing is my family Dr. I just don't trust them in this regard. Maybe if I was seeing a psychiatrist, and working closely with them to determine what was best I could do it, but mental health just gets so little attention, and the waiting lists can be really long.
Most of the time I'm fine. I really just don't see the benefits at this time. Sure if I find myself becoming schizophrenic or something, but right now? Not that bad.
I don't think that means Tayla's being oppressed or anything.
My thoughts exactly. That's basically the post I made. If you're writing an OTP fic, then all the other characters are secondary. Yeah it's great when you come a across a fic where the secondary characters are well thought out and do wonders for the story, but most of the time that's not the case. I mean, author's did the exact same thing in the QaF fandom, and they weren't being repressive there, because the characters were all white.
Saying that authors are intentionally trying to keep characters of colour down *because* they're people of colour is just... slanted evidence. This very thing occurs no matter the colour of the character.
I can totally understand being on the defensive. Being attacked tends to make some people overcompensate while defending themselves, especially against something as hot-button as racism.
Yeah, I can understand it... sort of. I just think it tends to make matters worse.
no subject
One thing that has worked for me, and may be an alternative for you too, is St. John's Wort. Its a simple herb, and although there is all the drama over how it may interact with other drugs, I have been using it for years and have never had a problem. I had seen a Naturopath at one period and she had given me some St. John's Wort herbal tea to drink, particularly during the lead up to PMS or any stress-inducing event, like exams and such. My father, who believes all this stuff is bullshit, says it may have a placebo effect, and it very well may be, but its still an option if you wanted to try it.
In the end, its your choice if you want to see a Dr. or not, and if they tell you to go on anti-depressants even after you have strictly told them you don't want to, then its time to find a new Dr. me thinks.
no subject
Hmm, I think I'll try the St. John's Wort
thing. Can't hurt at least, and it would be something that I could grab whenever I feel one of these blue periods coming on.
Secondary characters
On to the character bit now. I'm glad you brought this topic up, because I'd really like to get your opinion on secondary characters -- mainly, how much of a person's opinion of a secondary character is dependent on TPTB's portrayal of that character?
In the midst of the race wank, I saw quite a few people equating dislike of Ronon and Teyla to racism and I think that's inherently unfair. If you like geekiness in your characters, or playful banter, or leadership qualities, etc., etc., you're more likely to find those in leading characters, who are overwhelmingly of majority culture. In that case, it's not so much a reflection of the fan's opinion as it is TPTB's opinion and the fan making use of his/her limited options in terms of character preference.
That's my take on it, at least. Do you see it differently? Because I'm thinking that if people could just not shoehorn Ronon and Teyla into stories and say, "Hey, sorry, they're not my favorite characters" and not have that extrapolated to racism and failure to be a decent person, we'd probably have less of Teyla and Ronon in service roles than we would otherwise. It's sort of like we've created our own monster here.
Also, bonus points for giving me an opportunity to use one of my favorite icons. :)
Re: Secondary characters
Thanks :) Someone mentioned trying St. John's Wort, and it was on that list, so I think I might get a bottle, and just keep it on hand to try.
I'm glad you brought this topic up, because I'd really like to get your opinion on secondary characters
That sentence made me smile. :D
how much of a person's opinion of a secondary character is dependent on TPTB's portrayal of that character?
Beyond that, how much is it a writer's responsibility to "fix" racism in canon? People have mentioned that CoC get less attention in canon and it's true. Are we as a fandom supposed to try and fix that in our fic? Should we be elevating Ronon or Teyla or Ford's presence so that it equals the presence of the white characters? Because the answer to your question was that it depends a lot. I remember during the race wank people using Bates as an example because he's often vilified in fic. Come on! He was vilified in canon! Also, people are waaayyyyy worse when it comes to Kavanagh (sp?).
I also found it ridiculous how people reacted to Ronon. Ronon is a very special character. He's the character who's most different from the average viewers culture. His portrayal in canon makes him hard to place in our culture. Is it any surprise that when people are writing AUs that they have trouble placing him? I think the most popular position for Ronon is as body guard in those types of fics, because it's not that far of a leap. I think that Ronon is a character who'd you'd have to really *work* at to make him naturally fit into our society, so people just decide not to try.
In the midst of the race wank, I saw quite a few people equating dislike of Ronon and Teyla to racism and I think that's inherently unfair.
Word.
Because I'm thinking that if people could just not shoehorn Ronon and Teyla into stories and say, "Hey, sorry, they're not my favorite characters" and not have that extrapolated to racism and failure to be a decent person, we'd probably have less of Teyla and Ronon in service roles than we would otherwise.
I don't know if I agree with that on two counts.
1) I don't think shoehorning is done just out of dislike. In fact it's often done because the character *is* liked. They just want to have Ronon, or Lorne, or Miko show up because they liked that character. People find if fun to see who they can add, and find it a nice little nod to canon, even if they do have Ronon as a barista, and Lorne as the homeless person on the street, or Miko as a prostitute. They figure it's easier to put a recognized name in rather than a random one, and they've always like that character.
2) I think if we just stopped writing about CoC it'd cause a whole other outcry that we're, I don't know, trying to get rid of them? Kick them out of fandom? Something. I know I heard more than a few complaints while the race wank was going on that we already exclude them more than we should.
Although, you know, it either shows how my flist has changed, or else, how people are more honest when there isn't a spotlight on them, but I find it funny how I made pretty much this exact post back during the race wank and got... not flamed, but certainly singed, and now most people seem to be expressing a similar opinion.
Re: Secondary characters
That's an excellent point. I was really coming at this with my anti-Ronon and Teyla bias and I didn't quite see that.
Also, the idea of Miko as a prostitute is awesome. I loved her as the scary domme in Xanthe's epic. Also, I think artprofessor!Lorne should totally be worked into more AUs (see: previous comment re: people should write what I want all the time).
This is a tough one for me. As a PoC, I very rarely see people get it wrong, but I know they (and I) worry about it often enough. Sometimes I want to say, "Hey, it's okay. If you don't like writing about PoC because it makes you uncertain or worried about getting it right -- or if you just don't like the characters -- you shouldn't feel obligated to do it." I feel like a lot of the time it's done out of a fannish obligation to be inclusive and it's that obligation aspect that rubs me the wrong way. But I might be left of center in that regard.
I'm actually talking around my actual point, but I'm not sure if that's worth discussing half-formulated the way it is now, so I'll let that lie for now.
Re: Secondary characters
Do you actively dislike them? Or do you just not care about them? Because I just don't really care about Teyla or Weir, and I'm not overly attached to Ronon (but I do think he's pretty awesome). But still, I find myself missing Weir now she's gone, and I would be upset if something happened to Ronon or Teyla.
Also, the idea of Miko as a prostitute is awesome.
In that example, I originally had Lorne as the prostitute, and Mike as a waitress, but I figured I already had the service field covered with Barista and changed things up. :P
I loved her as the scary domme in Xanthe's epic
Oh god, I love that fic. So much. When I was doing my bad fic post, I couldn't help but think that Xanthe's fics would probably fall under that heading (because you've got to admit, they're kinda OOC), but my love for her stories wouldn't let me. :P
I was so upset to hear that she had scrapped her plans on writing the rest (parts between Coming Home and The General and Dr. Sheppard) because of the flames she got for Coming Home. Made me want to go beat people up. Stupid flamers.
I think artprofessor!Lorne should totally be worked into more AUs (see: previous comment re: people should write what I want all the time).
Did you ever read that AU fic where Lorne was a famous artist, and a pilot in his free time and he wooed... Zelenka? Rodney? John? I'm pretty sure it was Zelenka. I think it was done as part of a challenge, possibly a Harlequin one. But that's the only Artist!Lorne fic I've read.
I very rarely see people get it wrong, but I know they (and I) worry about it often enough.
And you know, I found that so weird when people said that during the race wank. For me, if I were a writer, I don't think race would have entered my mind when writing Ronon or Teyla. I mean, they're *aliens* I think that would make up for any mistakes I made. It's not like I have to worry about writing what it was like for Ronon to grow up in the ghetto. And even if a character had, like say David from Numb3rs, I'd probably just not mention it in my story.
Not experiencing something, or not knowing enough about someone... that's like saying, "I can't write John, because I've never been in the Air Force, I've never flown a plain, I'm not American". I'd say the first two at least, apply to most of fandom, but we don't have a shortage of John fics out there.
Even if you're still uncomfortable, it's increadibly easy in the SGA fandom to just. Not. Bring. It. Up. Or make shit up and blame it on them being an aliens.
I feel like a lot of the time it's done out of a fannish obligation to be inclusive and it's that obligation aspect that rubs me the wrong way.
Yeah, it kind of rubs me wrong too. Fandom is a huge labour of love, and throwing obligations into it... well, for one it takes a way a lot of the fun, and for another, whatever is produced out of obligation, probably isn't going to be as good, so it just casts those characters in a lesser light anyways.
Re: Secondary characters
Mostly, I just don't care. Teyla's too serene and Ronon's too violent for my tastes, but it's been hard to defend the opinion that one simply finds them uninteresting without fielding accusations of racism, so, yeah. I think I have a chip on my shoulder about the whole thing. Whoops.
Are you serious? I've been checking in every few months for that fic -- I had no idea she'd discontinued it! I remember reading Xanthe way back when she was first posting her X-Files epic; I can't believe I'm not going to get to read more. This and
I had to think about this for a while because on the one hand yes, absolutely true. But on the other hand, they're just not analogous somehow, although the argument can easily be made the Air Force is just as much a culture as anything else. Perhaps the difference is that I'm coming at it from a PoC perspective and (I'm assuming) you're not? I don't quite know if that's it, though.
The thing is, I'm very much aware of the bits of backstory I have to make up for CoCs and I feel like there's some pressure to move 'em on up like the Jeffersons in order to avoid any potential racism wank, at least when their backstory hasn't been specified. Take David, for example: I could write David fic with him growing up in the ghetto because he's said as much. No one could accuse me of racism for that characterization. But I'm afraid that if I wrote Ronon as a member of the warrior class, I'd be accused of racism and people would argue up and down that Sateda was an advanced civilization with universities and why couldn't I write Ronon as someone who was educated and a warrior? And then you'd get into the civilized caveman stereotypes, blahblahblah, and it would be a nightmare. And I feel like if I just left that out, then I'd be accused of fence sitting, like I'd either have to come out and admit I'm a racist and have just been trying not to show it or I'm a coward for not having written Ronon as a brilliant university student to start with. And the thing is, if I wrote either Colby or John as coming from a lower class family, even though neither's been specified (at least not that I recall), I wouldn't get any flack from anyone.
So, yeah, I know I'm thinking ten steps ahead and shooting myself in the foot before I've even been given a gun, but. I don't know. Writing CoC seems like such an issue, even if it's not. I doubt all that would happen (and even if it did, my public reaction would be a more polite version of, "Fuck all y'all, I'll write what I damn well please, take your meta elsewhere, kthnx"), but just the thought keeps me from even trying. And that's ridiculous, but. Yeah. If I thought people reacted to CoCs like they react to non-CoCs then it probably wouldn't be an issue, but I think there's still a divide there.
...yeah, so that was a random brain dump there. Sorry I couldn't make it more coherent.
Re: Secondary characters
Yeah I totally get that. That's one of the things that drives me crazy about the whole argument. That you can't just *do* something without having racist motivations. Of all the fics that were mentioned in the racism wank way back, how many of them do you think the author was honestly giving into racist ideals, conscious or unconscious?
Are you serious? I've been checking in every few months for that fic -- I had no idea she'd discontinued it!
Yeah, she's taken *so much* heat for it. From fans that object to the BDSM aspect of it, from people who have objected to the basis of the world, and the characterization. I think Coming Home was just too popular and got taken out if it's context, and people were reading it when it wasn't their thing, just because "everyone else" was. Actually, someone on my flist was writing about it yesterday, and from that post it's easy to see why she Xanthe decided to leave, even if it makes me really sad.
I'm going to post my comment to the rest of your post in another comment, since I'm sure I'll end up going over the word count.
Re: Secondary characters
Do you want to never see CoC in fanfic because people, even PoC are afraid of writing them?
Because, to me, thinking things like that, letting the fear of what other people say, well it is really shooting yourself in the foot before you start, but also, I think it spawns more confusion and misunderstanding, and leaves us open to all kinds of pain.
I think people need to learn to accept that writers can't be perfect. Or that people interpret things differently, and that those interpretations aren't done out of malice (usually, I know that's not always true), and that this applies to CoC too. I mean, we're all able to accept a hundred different interpretations of McKay and Sheppard, why can't there be more than one of Ronon and Teyla.
And the thing is, if I wrote either Colby or John as coming from a lower class family, even though neither's been specified (at least not that I recall), I wouldn't get any flack from anyone.
I think, more than anything, the thing that keeps racism alive, is the double standard.
When people demand that a character be treated differently, it creates an environment where people can do no right.
When people go ragging on a fic and call it racist rather than identify it as bad writing, or poor characterization they just create an environment where *anything* produced is going to seem racist.
And to lay the burden of saying that if you are going to touch these characters there is no room for error... it's just shooting yourself in the foot again, and means that people will never get past a persons skin colour and see a character, a person.
*sigh* I keep writing things, and then deleting them. I think trying to give examples is just throwing me off, so I'm going to leave it here.
no subject