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OTPs, John and Rodney in Fandom.
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equuscentric asked a question over at sardonicsmiley's Unpopular Opinion Post:
how can you love McShep when you have so much hatred for one of the pairing? That sort of thing would totally yank me out of a pairing, so it doesn't make any sense to me.
It's a completely valid question. And I do think it would be hard to ship a pairing if you *hated* half of it, but still, I think a lot of people do it.
I know I don't care for John all that much, but I still ship John/Rodney. I think the reason why I can do it though, is because it's *canon* John I'm not crazy about. Once you get into fic though, it's like he's a different character. And author's have a chance to give us more history, and an inside view of his emotions. So I've come to love Fanon McShep, and I'll be totally honest here and say, especially this past season, I don't really see McShep in canon.
What about you guys?
And while we're on the topic,equsscentric also said: What starts to get my hackles up is that many people, for some reason,seem to feel that they have to praise Rodney at John's expense. Rodney being rude is "snarky" and fun, while John being rude makes him an asshole. Why is it more acceptable in Rodney but not in John? It's all in perception, and the fandom's perception is skewed toward Rodney at the other's expense.
While I can't disagree that fandom, especially the fics I search out, have that skewed perception, I don't know how out of line it is. I've spoken toparadise_city about this in the past (seriously, what aspect of SGA haven't we discussed :P) but part of the reason why I feel ok in doing this, is because of what we see in canon. Yes Rodney is rude, and sarcastic and has flaws and makes mistakes, but they call him on it in canon. They don't really do that with the other characters. The best example I can think of is, of course, Duranda.
John woke up the Wraith, and just got a "It's not your fault". Carson killed half a planets population, and got a pat on the back. One of the things that got me the *most* about it though, is that near the end of that ep, we see Teyla come through the gate into the control room, and we can hear Elizabeth losing it, and totally reaming Rodney where everyone can hear. Now, she's gotten angry with John in the past, but she has always taken him aside and made her displeasure known with stony words and raised eyebrows, but with Rodney, she totally loses it. Rodney is the Chief of Science, and she totally dressed him down in front of some of his people and where anyone could hear about it. Rodney is going to have enough troubles with his staff getting over what he did, but how are any of them going to respect him, when they saw his superior show so much disrespect?
I don't blame Weir for yelling at him, but I do blame her for doing it in a public manner. At least Sheppard kept it at a private level once they were out of the heat.
Same thing goes with Rodney being an ass. We all know he can be an ass, but it's mostly because he's sort of oblivious about people, and can get really wrapped up in himself. We all know he acts this way, and acknowledge it. It's been acknowledged on the show, both by other characters (Sam has said the most outright, but Weir has with raised eyebrows and disapproval, John has with looks and head slaps and I'm sure the others have indicated to Rodney when he's been out of line too) and by Rodney himself (confessions to Sam and Jeanie, and even himself in Grace Under Pressure).
John on the other hand, I think Elizabeth was the only one who really called John on his actions, and that had more to do with command issues than his behaviour. John can be outright mean to others, especially Rodney. I think it's made worse by the fact that John does know people, and knows Rodney, and he has to know as he's being an ass what he's doing, and it's effects on people. Or at the very least should recognize the fact soon after doing it. Also, they never acknowledge John as being an ass on the show. You never see the members of his team call him on it, like they will for McKay sometimes. You never see John react when he says things like that. And it's further aggravated to me, because John has the reputation of being all smooth and lovable, completely ignoring that aspect of his character. Fandom takes Rodney's flaws and makes them better, that's what we're supposed to do, but we seem to as a whole, ignore John's a lot more (granted I know there are fics out there, especially set after Trinity where John is a complete asshole, but those are just as bad, since they ignore John's other qualites).
I think the Rodney fans feel the need to pick on these points, not just with John, but with other characters, because Rodney is the only one who really gets picked on in canon. Carson and to some extent Elizabeth had some personal self doubt, and Carson called Elizabeth on the whole Allies with the Wraith thing, but other than that, I can't think of anything. But still, even when the others are being called on what they do, they seem to still get respect from those doing it, whereas I don't always get that feeling when they call Rodney on his shit.
Please feel free to disagree with me, and I'd love some examples, because it could totally be selective memory on my part. Andequsscentric I hope you realize I'm not trying to pick on you, but you just got me thinking, and said it in a really clear way for me to respond to.
ETA:equuscentric would like to add that she does love Rodney if anyone where to think that (although personally, I didn't get any Rodney hate vibes of what she said, and you'll certainly see that if you read the thread linked above), you can read her response here.
equuscentric asked a question over at sardonicsmiley's Unpopular Opinion Post:how can you love McShep when you have so much hatred for one of the pairing? That sort of thing would totally yank me out of a pairing, so it doesn't make any sense to me.
It's a completely valid question. And I do think it would be hard to ship a pairing if you *hated* half of it, but still, I think a lot of people do it.
I know I don't care for John all that much, but I still ship John/Rodney. I think the reason why I can do it though, is because it's *canon* John I'm not crazy about. Once you get into fic though, it's like he's a different character. And author's have a chance to give us more history, and an inside view of his emotions. So I've come to love Fanon McShep, and I'll be totally honest here and say, especially this past season, I don't really see McShep in canon.
What about you guys?
And while we're on the topic,
equsscentric also said: What starts to get my hackles up is that many people, for some reason,seem to feel that they have to praise Rodney at John's expense. Rodney being rude is "snarky" and fun, while John being rude makes him an asshole. Why is it more acceptable in Rodney but not in John? It's all in perception, and the fandom's perception is skewed toward Rodney at the other's expense.While I can't disagree that fandom, especially the fics I search out, have that skewed perception, I don't know how out of line it is. I've spoken to
paradise_city about this in the past (seriously, what aspect of SGA haven't we discussed :P) but part of the reason why I feel ok in doing this, is because of what we see in canon. Yes Rodney is rude, and sarcastic and has flaws and makes mistakes, but they call him on it in canon. They don't really do that with the other characters. The best example I can think of is, of course, Duranda.John woke up the Wraith, and just got a "It's not your fault". Carson killed half a planets population, and got a pat on the back. One of the things that got me the *most* about it though, is that near the end of that ep, we see Teyla come through the gate into the control room, and we can hear Elizabeth losing it, and totally reaming Rodney where everyone can hear. Now, she's gotten angry with John in the past, but she has always taken him aside and made her displeasure known with stony words and raised eyebrows, but with Rodney, she totally loses it. Rodney is the Chief of Science, and she totally dressed him down in front of some of his people and where anyone could hear about it. Rodney is going to have enough troubles with his staff getting over what he did, but how are any of them going to respect him, when they saw his superior show so much disrespect?
I don't blame Weir for yelling at him, but I do blame her for doing it in a public manner. At least Sheppard kept it at a private level once they were out of the heat.
Same thing goes with Rodney being an ass. We all know he can be an ass, but it's mostly because he's sort of oblivious about people, and can get really wrapped up in himself. We all know he acts this way, and acknowledge it. It's been acknowledged on the show, both by other characters (Sam has said the most outright, but Weir has with raised eyebrows and disapproval, John has with looks and head slaps and I'm sure the others have indicated to Rodney when he's been out of line too) and by Rodney himself (confessions to Sam and Jeanie, and even himself in Grace Under Pressure).
John on the other hand, I think Elizabeth was the only one who really called John on his actions, and that had more to do with command issues than his behaviour. John can be outright mean to others, especially Rodney. I think it's made worse by the fact that John does know people, and knows Rodney, and he has to know as he's being an ass what he's doing, and it's effects on people. Or at the very least should recognize the fact soon after doing it. Also, they never acknowledge John as being an ass on the show. You never see the members of his team call him on it, like they will for McKay sometimes. You never see John react when he says things like that. And it's further aggravated to me, because John has the reputation of being all smooth and lovable, completely ignoring that aspect of his character. Fandom takes Rodney's flaws and makes them better, that's what we're supposed to do, but we seem to as a whole, ignore John's a lot more (granted I know there are fics out there, especially set after Trinity where John is a complete asshole, but those are just as bad, since they ignore John's other qualites).
I think the Rodney fans feel the need to pick on these points, not just with John, but with other characters, because Rodney is the only one who really gets picked on in canon. Carson and to some extent Elizabeth had some personal self doubt, and Carson called Elizabeth on the whole Allies with the Wraith thing, but other than that, I can't think of anything. But still, even when the others are being called on what they do, they seem to still get respect from those doing it, whereas I don't always get that feeling when they call Rodney on his shit.
Please feel free to disagree with me, and I'd love some examples, because it could totally be selective memory on my part. And
equsscentric I hope you realize I'm not trying to pick on you, but you just got me thinking, and said it in a really clear way for me to respond to.ETA:
equuscentric would like to add that she does love Rodney if anyone where to think that (although personally, I didn't get any Rodney hate vibes of what she said, and you'll certainly see that if you read the thread linked above), you can read her response here.
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Unfortunately that quote makes me sound rather anti-Rodney and I hope I don't get a bunch of flames out of it, because again, I do love Rodney a whole lot. What I was saying is that I don't understand why people have to put down one character to lift another one up, and the vast majority of the time, the one they chose is John. I think Rodney as a character stands on his own merits high enough that he doesn't need boosting from character assassination. People may complain about how Rodney is always fussed at/about, but it's partly because of that we have so much character development for him. We get to see how Rodney thinks and reacts to different situations, and more importantly why, more than anyone else on the show. IMO, he's the one the one that has had the most on-screen personal growth over the four seasons.
I know John has his flaws. I know he can be a jerk sometimes. I hated how he acted in "Adrift" and "Lifeline." No one calls him on it most likely because of his authority, but I wish someone would because I would love to know more about how John's mind works. I will say, though, that in pointing out his big mistakes, I have never considered his waking the Wraith as being something to pin on him. Sumner was the one that insisted on checking out the place, and no one told John, "Hey, if you kill this chick you'll wake everyone up early." He had no way of knowing she was any different from the others they'd already shot. If he'd known that was a risk and did it anyway, that would be different.
As for Elizabeth, her reaming Rodney publicly was just plain bad management. Maybe because they were both civilians, or because she's known Rodney for so long, she felt that she had a personal stake in it, I don't know. Whatever the case, it was a damned shitty thing to do, as a friend or a commander. I liked Weir as a person but some of her management decisions were just plain bad.
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A couple things on this:
1) I highly doubt anyone on my flist would flame you. Even the rabid Rodney fans. :P (although, for god's sake, if you *do* please let me know. Because I didn't choose to quote you because I think you're wrong, I did it because I respected what you said, and I would hate it if anyone gave you grief over what I've said here).
2) I don't think your quotes come off as being anti-Rodney at all. Hell the first quote from you says you don't understand how someone could dislike half of their pairing. And the second quote is about John, and doesn't, to me, reflect on your thoughts about Rodney at all.
I've added an ETA to my post, but really, I don't think you need to worry, and I'm sorry if I made you do so.
3) The reason why I quoted you, instead of just making this a random meta quote out of nowhere, is because I think what you said was very well done, and summed up a lot of things that rabid Rodney lovers miss, but do all the time. I never would have been able to get that point across as clearly and simply as you did. It made me stop and think about what I do, and even though this post is all about me excusing the Rodney fan's actions that drive you crazy, it's really more of a complaint against TPTB and not against other fans.
the one they chose is John
I think the reason why people choose John the most is, well, because of all the characters on the show, they're the most well developed, and they're the characters we ship. If we see John act out against Rodney, it hits us a bit harder because we feel that they should be in love and not mean like that to us.
I'm... trying to think of situations where Rodney has been mean to John, but I'm actually drawing a blank, but that could totally be my blinders on.
Also, because John and Rodney seem to get in trouble together, or get into equal amounts of trouble it's a lot easier to compare them, rather than, say Rodney and Ford, or Rodney and Teyla, because we don't see those two getting into the same situations as we would Rodney or John.
I think Rodney as a character stands on his own merits high enough that he doesn't need boosting from character assassination.
That's very true. I think for a lot of people, especially if there is a really unbalanced amount of love for one character in a pairing, we just... have trouble understanding why others don't care for our favourite character as much as we do, or god, why would you love the other more? You're just the more balanced person (and probably more sane for it) in the equation :P
That said, I don't think it's always character assassination to draw parallels between two characters, nor to say, "I can't get behind character X because of this list of character flaws". Sometimes they just end up mashed up in the same sentence.
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I realize it's not always character assassination, but sometimes it is, and those times get me hypersensitive. I was involved in a few too many Brian vs (your character here) discussions that turned ugly. I loved QaF but it really made me wary of fandom meta LOL.
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...There was fandom meta for QaF?
I seriously think you and I had very different fandom experiences in QaF :P
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Which leads me back to my first original comment up there. I would sometimes, out of curiosity, poke my nose into the occasional B/M discussion, and I was really surprised at how many B/M shippers either strongly disliked or outright hated Brian. Some of the things they said were shockingly hostile and it really made me wonder why the hell they were shipping their beloved Mikey (*eyeroll*) with someone they couldn't stand. Especially when they had a canon ship with Ben, who was a wonderful character in his own right (and in a three way tie with Emmett and Ted as my second favorite on the show).
I can see liking one character more than another. I'm obviously a Brian fan. I liked Justin, but my interest in him was primarily his relationship with and importance to Brian; I had very little interest in Justin outside of Brian-related storylines. So in that vein, I can see why you would like McShep even though you don't really like John all that much. What I was responding to was the "I HATEHATEHATE JOHN" comment, because that's rather more vehement than disinterest.
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Ahh, see come season 5, I was mostly leaving the fandom. Also I was one of those spoiler virgins, so I avoid all the spoiler discussions regardless of wank, and the only wank I saw came from other virgins complaining about inconsiderate spoiler hos who'd post spoilers without cuts or warnings. :P
I knew about the shipper wars, but I never actually saw them all that often. Once a person on my flist got caught up with it in
I would sometimes, out of curiosity, poke my nose into the occasional B/M discussion, and I was really surprised at how many B/M shippers either strongly disliked or outright hated Brian. Some of the things they said were shockingly hostile and it really made me wonder why the hell they were shipping their beloved Mikey (*eyeroll*) with someone they couldn't stand.
Wow, I always assumed the B/Mers hated Justin. The only B/Mers that I really "knew" at all were the vidders of itsnotbullshit.com because I loved Veero's vids. Actually, I remember when I made my first vid,
Especially when they had a canon ship with Ben, who was a wonderful character in his own right
The only thing I could really say to defend them, is that Brian did treat Mikey kind of badly, but Mikey still wanted him. And if you started shipping from the beginning, Ben wasn't there, and gah, who the hell can like David? He was so creepy, and was basically using Mikey as a young boy-toy. God, I found David so creepy, there are no words. And some people, when they get into a ship, they don't like changing it later on. But yeah, if you adore Mikey, I can understand why you'd hate Brian as a potential love interest, since I think he'd make Mikey miserable (you know he really, really would), but that's why I didn't ship them....
Maybe the B/Mers were frustrated because in season one they did have a lot of sexual undercurrents going on, and then it just kind of disappeared as the focus moved, and the fans of that ship probably just got bitter.
That's sort of happened to me in Numb3rs. In season 1 Don and Charlie have so much going on between then, now though, you're lucky if they're even in the same scene together, and if they are, they generally have their girlfriends with them. It'd killing the pairing for me, and I find it really hard to read fanfic in that fandom now. But I don't hate either of them (*attempts to sound on topic* :P).
I can see liking one character more than another. I'm obviously a Brian fan. I liked Justin, but my interest in him was primarily his relationship with and importance to Brian;
I didn't have a favourite between those two until season 3, when Brian was acting like a big woobie cuddly thing, that's when I fell head over heels for Brian. It didn't help that Justin's side storylines were things like The Gay/Straight Alliance and the Pink Posse.
What I was responding to was the "I HATEHATEHATE JOHN" comment, because that's rather more vehement than disinterest.
Hmm. I think while you and I have flists that seem to be Rodney lovers, there are still quite a few John lovers out there. There's this one mailing list I'm on where there seems to be a lot more John lovers. Listening to people squee about how awesome John is or making him sound like he's perfect, completely ignoring his faults (I'm sure you've felt the same, but about people talking about Rodney instead)... Well it can drive some people a little crazy, and they don't think to blame their friends, so instead focus on the character. *shrugs*
Sorry about the messed up tags, I wrote this up in Writer while in the car, and some of the characters didn't transfer. Also, now whenever I type in hate in Writer, it asks me if I mean HATEHATEHATE because I had copied your comment into it :P
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Oh definitely. And I think that's part of the reason why I feel closer to him. I know Rodney more, and am able to understand his motives. Whereas there are some things that John does that just make me go WTF? because they seem OOC for me, or make me think he's just an asshole and paint a bad IC for him.
I hated how he acted in "Adrift" and "Lifeline."
Oh god, I have to say it, I really strongly disliked Sheppard in Adrift. I hate how he assumed he was in charge. Atlantis is a civilian operation, in a scientific crisis, not a military one, shouldn't that mean Rodney would be in charge? Not that I really wanted to see him in charge (seriously, while I love that fic where Rodney takes over Atlantis when Elizabeth got gassed, I don't actually think he'd be a great leader for the city), I just would have preferred to see them work together, like they do with the team, and not see John try and throw his authority around. It drove me crazy when John tried to control Rodney on the scientific stuff, because to me, it just felt like a call back his distrust of Rodney's judgment from Trinity. Gah!
No one calls him on it most likely because of his authority, but I wish someone would
I really would too. John can be such a loose canon in some ways. I mean, Elizabeth, especially in season 1 and 2 never really had control over him. He'd listen to her when he felt like it, but would ignore her when he wanted to as well. Think of Hot Zone, when he ordered his marines to disregard her orders, and undercut her authority with the military? Or how when he went chasing after Cheya, Elizabeth wouldn't order him not to, because she knew he would ignore her and do it anyways. For Elizabeth, those are big underminings for her, and I can't believe she let him get away with it with no more than a slap on the wrist.
I really wish we had seen some tension between John and Sam, because I think she would have been able to call John on it, without breaking him, or making herself the enemy. I'm curious as to how things will turn out in season 5.
I will say, though, that in pointing out his big mistakes, I have never considered his waking the Wraith as being something to pin on him.
To be honest, I mentioned it, because it's what people mention most. John made it clear he blamed himself (but later moves that blame onto the Lantians collectively) and it's what other fans mention the most. *My* reaction would be to pat him on the shoulder, and say "It's not your fault", but the truth is, Elizabeth warned him that this could happen when he first insisted on going, so I think a little blame, for him running in and not doing the proper recon (the Athosians were *right* *there* he could have asked them a few questions before running in).
As for Elizabeth, her reaming Rodney publicly was just plain bad management.
I think Elizabeth tiptoed around John a lot. Like I said above, he didn't really respect her authority over him. He'd pay lip service to it, and I'm sure if you asked him he'd say "Hell yes I respect Elizabeth" but he just never followed it through with his actions, because he always believed that he knew better. And I'm not saying that in some cases he didn't know better than she did, but still, it had her treat John differently. And unfortunately we only really see Elizabeth disciplining John, Rodney and Kavanaugh, and based on those three, John seems to be the aberration rather than Rodney (as much as fandom likes to hate Kavanaugh, in 38 Minutes, he was pointing out a problem that could kill all of them, rather than just the 6 or so on the jumper, and she dressed him down in front of his colleges too).
I liked Weir as a person but some of her management decisions were just plain bad.
Yeah, the writers on a whole did a bad job writing her character. :(
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Exactly. I've read people accusing TPTB for liking John more, but I really don't think they do. He's not come nearly as far in his development as Rodney, and what he has is due more to Flanigan's portrayal than the actual writing. To steal a paraphrase, John's not a sociopathic asshole, he's just written that way. "Outcast" is the only episode that gives any genuine insight into John on his own, and it took four years for us to get it. Imagine if Rodney hadn't moved out of his original SG1 persona. I honestly doubt he'd be nearly as popular now if he hadn't.
I really wish we had seen some tension between John and Sam
From what I understand, so did Flanigan. Unfortunately, the writers wanted it differently. I also blame them for the lack of professional tension between John and Elizabeth. She didn't berate John because the writers were too lazy to go there.
(as much as fandom likes to hate Kavanaugh, in 38 Minutes, he was pointing out a problem that could kill all of them, rather than just the 6 or so on the jumper, and she dressed him down in front of his colleges too)
HAHA I was going to say in my original comment that I don't hate Kavanaugh, but I got sidetracked by the John stuff. While I don't particularly like him, in that very instance I thought Elizabeth was waaaay out of line, both with the original reprimand and the follow up when Kavanaugh called her on it. It honestly made me lose some respect for her, and I never quite regained it. But, it does set a precedent for her dressing down Rodney in "Trinity." Evidently she thinks publicly berating the scientists is acceptable or something. :/
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I would actually agree that they like John more. They think of John as the hero and leave of the show, and want to paint him as perfect and awesome cool. The thing is, they *relate* more to McKay, since the writers are all geeky nerds themselves. I think it's more because they understand McKay rather than idolize him, as they do Sheppard, that he has the more detailed background. They may like Sheppard more, but they have a lot more trouble getting inside his head.
From what I understand, so did Flanigan.
I know, I hadn't really thought of it until I heard that JF wanted it, and then it stuck with me. It would have been so much better had the writers gone that route with John instead of Ronon.
I also blame them for the lack of professional tension between John and Elizabeth. She didn't berate John because the writers were too lazy to go there.
God, and it made Elizabeth look so weak! Actually, most of Elizabeth's story lines make me sad. She's supposed to be a world famous diplomat for gods sake! I wanted to hit something in, I think it was The Game, when she just kind of threw up her hands and gave up negotiating for them.
While I don't particularly like him, in that very instance I thought Elizabeth was waaaay out of line, both with the original reprimand and the follow up when Kavanaugh called her on it.
I'm one of those people who is easily led and takes things at face value, and the writers set Kavanaugh up to be hated and mocked, so I didn't really think about it. Then someone made the point to me that he wasn't really out of line, and it totally made me rethink that scene. I still can't really respect him for following her out of there immediately, he would have done better to either continue to make his point (I'm not worried about getting the blame if this goes wrong, because if it goes wrong, there will be no one *left* to blame! It's not a waste of time if there's a chance doing this will kill everyone, we should take the time to look into some sort of failsafe, or it won't just be them dead, it'll be *all* of us) or else solve the problem and take her aside later. Rodney so would have done the former, just saying ;)
And while we're talking about assholeish characters, can I just say I was shocked at the amount of people admitting in that post that they liked Caldwell? Why is that a dirty secret? Are there people out there who *don't* like Caldwell? Why? He's awesome! I was so annoyed when they brought Ellis (the Apollo guy) in because that's so Caldwell's job! I think the scene where I really fell in love with Caldwell is that time Woolsey was going around checking up on the Atlantis personnel and tried to get the dirt on them from Caldwell, and Caldwell totally shot them down. I love that he started out as totally separate from the Atlantians, and now he's totally one of them :)
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I've not read many people say they don't like Caldwell, but I've read a LOT of fic in which Caldwell is unfriendly to downright malevolent, busting John for DADT or trying to take him job, etc. Which I've always thought was kind of stupid because he's not acted that way in canon. Sure he's more by-the-book than John, but then pretty much everyone is. XD Caldwell/Weir was actually one of my favorite background pairings. As for Ellis, I don't like him even the slightest bit, but I'm not sure how much of that is the actual character and how much of it is actor carry-over, because I really despised Doc on Third Watch.