paraka | The Fannish Life of a Podficer

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The Fannish Life of a Podficer

So, last week I got metafandomed for that post I made on why people listen to podfic. A conversation in the comments however got into ownership of podfic (how much control does the author vs. podficer have) and, well, it got me thinking. So I want to talk a little bit about what I've experienced as a podficer and my thoughts on it, and invite any other podficers to chime in.

When it comes to ownership of podfic, I think it's a 75%/25% split.

Theoretically the podficer has 75% ownership. It's their work and they can do with it what they will once they have permission from the author. The author has some claims on it since it's their story but anything they want done to the podfic has to go through the podficer. But since the podficer has most of the ownership they can choose to not do what the author asks after permission has been given. This is very much supported by the

podficmeta post "Author Control (After Initial Permission)".

Practically the author has 75% ownership. As a podficer I think of a podfic as my creation. However getting into a fight with an author is... not fun. And you don't want the author leaving hating you and spreading the word that you're a horrible fannish person. Author's carry a lot more weight in fandom than podficers do. One author can complain and then their flist goes and dogpiles the podficer (hey, when I sort of had that happen to me, the author didn't even mention my name and I had everything down in under 3 hours of her making the post and I still had someone find my journal and leave a comment). And hey, even if the podficer can handle it personally, there are now all these people in fandom who are distrustful of podfic and won't allow it for their works.

So, even though I feel like my podfics are my babies, I end up giving up my ownership over it to the author, if they ask, to avoid rocking the boat. And I'm not the only one, as this post by

general_jinjur shows.

And, the thing is, that's a terrifying place to be as a creator, having someone else control my works. At this point in my fannish life, podfic is my biggest contribution to fandom. I have more podfic than I do vids and fic put together. I've run a couple comms/challenges but a decent number of those were podfic related. So. It's extra scary because podfic is obviously my passion but the author may not even care about it beyond how it's applied to their fic.

I've dealt with 21 authors when it comes to podfic and have gotten the whole range or responses. I had one author who didn't even acknowledge me (they had given blanket permission and so I dropped them a comment and they never responded), I've had another author who created a podfic page on their website and made a special stats page so I could see the hits she gets on it, I've had one author tell me to take my podfic down and I currently have one author actively involved with my podficing process. Most authors fall somewhere in the middle, where they'll be happy and flattered when you ask permission and will pimp it on their journals/fic post when it's done but others can be indifferent. Only a handful of those authors have shown actual interest in my podfic beyond it being their story.

And I'm ok with all of that. I don't actually make podfic for the author. I make it for myself, for the podfic community and anyone who might be willing to give podfic a listen. If that includes the author, awesome! But I don't podfic with them specifically in mind.

But there's always the fear that because the author's are only interested in my podfic as it applies to them that they aren't going to... I don't know. Take into consideration what the podfic means to me and others. In some ways, as horrible as it sounds, I almost welcome the indifference from authors because maybe then they'll forget about what I've done and just leave me with it.

And, obviously, I would never want what I made to hurt someone else. If the author was in some kind of RL trouble and my podfic could get her in more trouble, then I'd gladly take it down. But, there are a lot of people that create things and then later decide they want to take it down (for non-critical reasons, like maybe they just don't like it anymore). And the idea that they'd just tell me to take my stuff down because they no longer like it? It's not a fun one! The one author who asked me to take my podfic of her story down never gave me a reason for it (it was a messy situation and so I felt I couldn't ask) and it still bothers me.

Podfic is still a newly popular(ish) thing. A lot of us are still stumbling around trying to decide how this is going to work. The podfic community is talking it out and deciding how we want things but there certainly isn't universal agreement (is there ever? :P). And the problem is, that the podficers and listeners are only 2/3 of the interested parties. Right now a lot of author's don't even know to get involved. They aren't taking the time to define what they want out of podfic. It's hard for a standard to be set when only one group is negotiating as a whole and the other group only has random representatives. And, as I said above, author's really aren't consistent in their attitudes toward podfic.

In the end it makes me feel kind of powerless, because I see what rights I want to have as a podficer but I also realize that they're called into question every time someone challenges them. I don't know, maybe I think about this a lot more than the average podficer because I had that one situation where I had to take my podfic down but I am nervous about this.

I can't really think of any way to fix this other than to meta about it. So, watch me meta :)

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I've dealt with 21 authors when it comes to podfic and have gotten the whole range or responses.

I've recorded over 100 podfics, so I've come across a lot of different responses, too. I've only had one outright "no", actually, but there have been a number who didn't reply at all. But I haven't come across anyone who wants me to take the podfic down.

But I haven't come across anyone who wants me to take the podfic down.
As I said in the post, it was a messy situation with third (and maybe fourth?) parties involved. Someone without the proper authority gave permission to podfic and, well, I'm sure you can see where that went.

I certainly don't blame the author for telling me to take the podfic down or for being upset. I don't even think that she owes me an explanation for not wanting podfic of her stories but just because I don't think she has to give me a reason doesn't mean I don't want one. :( It feels like I never got closure on the whole thing so it continues to bug me. I... really need to just let it go but once you've been burned it's hard not to be cautious and protective going forward.

Someone without the proper authority gave permission to podfic and, well, I'm sure you can see where that went.

Oh, that does sound messy. : (

Yeah. *sigh* Also, really not fun.

We had a podfic gathering on Wincon Sunday and while most of the attendees were readers, we had two writers sit in on at least a part of the discussion and recording. We talked a little bit around some of these issues, but what really struck me most about that conversation was when one of the writers chimed in and asked what she, as a writer, could do for us as podficcers. I think we were all really pleasantly surprised and touched, because it was putting the ownership back in our hands, or at the very least, making it a collaborative effort, rather than just a format shift.

I've also had mixed bag reactions to permission asking. I've had one or two authors reply cautiously or even suspiciously, but even when they're enthusiastic, I often get the sense that they feel like I'm doing it for them... which, yes, I'm thrilled that it makes writers happy and that they enjoy the work we do - I want my authors to enjoy the readings, of enthusiasm - but I wish there was a way to reconcile the conflict between "This is my fanwork" and "This is your version of my fanwork".

In her

podficmeta post

helens78 said "It also makes me think that I wish there were a list of authors who are passionate about the value an audiofic reader lends to a story, because I would much, much rather record a story for one of those authors than for one who doesn't see that much value in it."

And while I don't really want to limit the stories that I podfic, it really does make a difference if the author is as excited about it. And knows what they're agreeing to.

I think there are authors out there that give permission, blanket permission even, but don't really consider what that means. I think it's hard because while the podfic community is discussing these things a lot of authors don't even know what podfic is. When they go in, they have a certain set of assumptions they make and assume that that's how it is.

I don't completely blame authors for this. People only have so much fannish time, it makes sense to spend it in parts of fandom you're involved in and trying to catch up on all the meta when someone asks to podfic your works is a lot of work.

I wonder if, as podficers, we should be doing more to put our positions forward.

revolutionaryjo made a Dear Author post where she spelled out what she means when she asks permission. I've kind of been thinking of doing one but the way it is in my brain right now would probably scare most authors off (I'm a contract coordinator in RL and my instinct is to write something similar to what I'd use at work :S Fandom is so not the place for that though ;).

Edited (html fail!) 2010-10-21 16:40 (UTC)

I think it makes a lot of sense, yeah. We're encouraging authors to make policy statement and give blanket permission - but not without thinking about what that means, etc - so why wouldn't we also write out our own policies... Informed consent for the win, you know? I think I'll start drafting mine out.

That's a really good point. Why aren't we doing what we're asking of authors? I tend to put a lot of information into the permissions discussion, but it still leaves a lot up in the air. Except how do we write these posts without making it look like we're laying down battle lines? Do we want to create hard and fast boundaries at all?

Well, general consensus builds up from miscellanous contemporary practices and ideas, right? If I write my manifesto down it won't be the same as yours, I assume. I don't see that an individual podficcer writing their own policies down should be perceived as laying down battle lines if that person is not belligerent in their wording, and even less if it is easily obvious that podficcers don't all have the same opinions and policies. No?

I don't want to create hard and fast boundaries especially, in the sense that I believe every system needs a way to deal with unique cases and varying circumstances... but we're not talking of building an actual system (there is and won't ever be an authority of podfic) - rather we're talking about loosely connected people each thinking through for themselves what they're ready to do and not do, and we're projecting the potential consensus that could evolve over time without any status as enforceable rules, so...

Am I making any sense? The day has been long and I'm starting to droop, I admit. :)

I think what

cantarina means by "how do we write these posts without making it look like we're laying down battle lines?" is how can we spell out what we expect from the author and lines we don't want to cross, without putting the author off.

Like, I want control of the audio copy of the fic. I don't want the author doing anything to my podfic without asking first. Or, if the author wants to take down their fic, I might not necessarily take my podfic down. How do we explain that with out putting the author off?

Well, I don't think there's any way to be sure you'll never put off anyone. If an author is not ready to think about this and come to an understanding of your pov, you'll never see eye to eye. There are people who might never give you their informed consent. But do you want their uninformed consent? No, you don't, really. So you need to know that they don't agree with you before you get into bed with them... so you can avoid it.

I believe that in the case of irreconcilable differences, it's better if everyone knows they exist. And in the case where an understanding CAN be reached, well, I'm pretty sure you can write down what you think without making it sound aggressive or off-putting to the people who can potentially agree with you.

It might /seem/ hard, but I think the part of us that thinks it's hard is actually the part secretly unable to cope with the idea that we can't all agree on everything. It's the part of us that thinks, perhaps if they didn't know everything I think they might let me record their fic anyway, and I could get away with it! That's a petty and juvenile part of us, though. Wouldn't you say? *g*

It might /seem/ hard, but I think the part of us that thinks it's hard is actually the part secretly unable to cope with the idea that we can't all agree on everything. It's the part of us that thinks, perhaps if they didn't know everything I think they might let me record their fic anyway, and I could get away with it!
I think it's that exactly. There's the thought, well, if they don't know, what are the chances it'll come up? But really, you're right, it's better to know this in advance.

I made the posts to

podficmeta and

amplificathon inviting people to brainstorm on how they'd write theirs. Hopefully that'll help me. I think it's also going to be interesting seeing what kind of expectations podficers have about this because I know reading

revolutionaryjo's post that I was surprised by some of the things she said.

I shall be following the posts!

And yes, her Dear Author letter surprised me a lot too. I don't think of my work in the same way as her. It's so interesting. :)

Hee. I'm glad I wasn't the only one. It made me feel like I was maybe being unreasonable.

Ohh, I'd love to see what you do in yours. I just tried writing one out myself and it's a lot harder than I thought it'd be :S I think I might bring this over to

podficmeta or

amplificathon

A(nother) group discussion about it would be neat! perhaps in both places? Or a post in amplificathon and a link in podficmeta?

I haven't started drafting yet. I'm thinking :D

Agreed. When our writer made her comment, it made me want to go and find a story of hers to podfic. Someone who loves what I do and respects it? How could I not want to build that relationship.

I wonder if we couldn't take this discussion to places like

spnroundtable in some of the major podfic fandoms and get a broader dialogue going.

That would be interesting! If that happens please could you also bring back the links, for those of us who are in podfic without being part of SPN?

If you're not in SPN fandom, do you know of any comparable communities elsewhere? Roundtable is great, but Supernatural and CWRPF are only one piece of the puzzle.

I'm not sure I know general-discussion communities... Most are focused on a pairing or a type of fanwork. I'll think about it! :)

I think probably the best places to talk about this are

podficmeta and

amplificathon.

Hey, so on Twitter you said "You seemed to feel strongly that owernship discussions should stay in the podfic sphere. Can I ask for more thoughts?"

Which... is not actually how I feel? I don't think it should stay only within the podfic sphere, in fact, in the original post I lamented "It's hard for a standard to be set when only one group is negotiating as a whole and the other group only has random representatives."

I think it would be amazing to have conversations outside of the podfic sphere. It wouldn't necessarily be easy since I'm sure podficcers would end up fielding a lot potentially hurtful ignorance on the subject. But the thing is, having that kind of conversation would probably help reduce instances of that in the future.

I think you got the impression that I feel these kinds of conversations should stay within podfic fandom since I suggested holding the conversations at

podficmeta and

amplificathon?

The reason I suggested those two places was in response to

anatsuno's comment about wanting to have the discussion somewhere that wasn't just SPN specific. I took that as a suggestion to hold it somewhere that was multifannish. The only multifannish locations I could think of that would support such discussions of podfic, unfortunately, are within podfic fandom.

I misunderstood you completely! *facepalms* Thanks for taking the time to come back to this, though.

I think it would be amazing to have conversations outside of the podfic sphere. It wouldn't necessarily be easy since I'm sure podficcers would end up fielding a lot potentially hurtful ignorance on the subject.
Agreed all around. It wouldn't be a terribly fun conversation, but you're right when you say it might reduce hurtful comments in the future.

And unfortunately, I can't think of anywhere better with a multifandom scope to hold that conversation either. I think it's something I'd really like to see happen though; would you be up to adding it to our monster list of eventual podfic-related projects to start thinking on?

Hmm, from the perspective of an author (that being myself) I think podfic in general is a bit frightening. Ownership and fanworks has always been sort of a big deal, and now with the relative explosion in the popularity of audio-fanfiction (which I am well aware has been around... well, pretty much since the beginning well before my time) that fear has once more boiled to the surface.

I would be very uncomfortable putting my fanworks with a podficcer that would alter/sell/post/etc. the piece without my input. Personally, I love the idea of being recorded (I haven't been as yet, but have been considering doing one myself for the novelty and am open to the potential of others doing my work) but it would have to be with someone I either know well and trust or someone who would give me strong say in the matter - particularly when it comes to making alterations. I am very aware that you can find anything online, no matter how well you protect it. In essence, I would still very much want to have "ownership" of the piece.

I sort of see it more in the same light as someone doing a translation into another language. The piece should not be altered, and should maintain an approrpiate tone. The original author never loses any sense of ownership, the translator is simply putting it into another media. Perhaps this is an antiquated way of thinking?

Please don't think I'm bashing on podficcers, I find the concept quite fascinating, but as a writer am I missing the whole point? Is podfic (in your opinion, obviously opinions may vary) different from a voice recording or a piece? The essence I'm getting out of the OP is that podfic should be treated as a separate fanwork based on my fanwork?

You're also missing some things about translation, imo, if you think it isn't transformative* - which doesn't mean that the original author doesn't have control about the dissemination of a translation, because in the real world they certainly have. You're not the author of a translation though, the translator is. While as the author of the original piece of you have a say in the distribution and publishing of the translation, you do not have a moral right nor a copyright on the translator's text, ie, the translation. :)

* I do not mean in a legal sense, with 'transformative' being a status different from and mutually exclusive with 'derivative' - I do believe that translations are considered derivative works, legally.

Ahh, very good to know. I hadn't really thought of it that way. Thank you. :)

Hmm, from the perspective of an author (that being myself) I think podfic in general is a bit frightening.
One of the things I'm struggling with, as a podficer, is this idea. Because, on the one hand, I don't want to scare authors away from letting us use their stories, on the other hand, I don't want to have someone go into this blindly and have to deal with the potential fall out later. In response to this post,

revolutionaryjo made a Dear Author post and I think that seems like a good compromise. That way people's expectations are spelled out, especially since there's no one set of expectations (

revolutionaryjo seems to fall on the authors-have-complete-control end of the spectrum, there are others who are on the podficers-have-complete-control side. Personally, I'm in the middle somewhere).

but as a writer am I missing the whole point?... The essence I'm getting out of the OP is that podfic should be treated as a separate fanwork based on my fanwork?
I think you're missing it a little?
Podfic is a lot like a translation but I don't think an author should have complete control over a translation either. I think...
When you write something, you put a lot of time and effort into it. You want to make a product that you can take pride in and that others will enjoy. You want to make something that not only adds to the fannish sphere, but also adds something to the original source.
There are a lot of people (outside of fandom) that don't think fanfic counts. It's not original! You're building on someone else's hard work! How dare you try and claim ownership over it! If a PTB tells you to stop writing fic, you have to or else it's stealing.

As a fanart, podfic and translations go through the same steps as fic does. As a podficer I spend a lot of time and effort on my podfics (for every minute of finished podfic, I spend a minimum of 5 minutes working on it. I average about 10 minutes of work for every finished minute but at times it's gotten as high as 20+ minutes. That 5 hour podfic? Probably took about 75 hours of work). I take pride in my podfics and I know others enjoy them. And yes, we add something to the story. If that weren't the case, you could just use a screen reader (or something like Google translation for translations). But the experience of podfic, it's not just words anymore, it's a performance, it's emotion. It adds to what the author has already put there. I know that there are podfics out there that I love, of fics that I had read and not actually liked that much (or as much as I love the podfic). The podficer was able to bring something that I didn't experience when I read it.

So to me, yeah, podfic is a new and separate fanwork. Having someone imply that podfic should still fall under the author's ownership... I feel they're missing what I'm doing, just as the people outside of fandom think that fanfic doesn't have any value. When an author expects equal or greater ownership of my podfic, well, to me, it would kind of be like JK Rowling announcing that she owns all the Harry Potter fanfic out there. I say kind of because that analogy doesn't take into account two things:
1. Depending on the copyright laws of the country involved, some fanfic has some legal protection which doesn't really apply when talking fic/podfic/translations. Also the degree of transformation varies far more between fic than it does for podfic.
2. It ignores the fact that the power dynamics are very different within fandom. I can ask the author for permission and get a response, where as I doubt JKR would even look at my request. Also, we can be a little more callous about TPTB because they aren't really part of our community. If I upset an author though, well, that's pissing off the neighbours and I'm going to have to deal with that. I don't want to get black listed among authors or to have someone posting on their flist about how evil I am and that podfic is bad. So, it's much better for me to work with an author then against them.

And that... makes it sound like I want to do horrible things or something. I'm not suggesting podficers start podficing stories without consulting the author or anything. And, god, if any of the authors I've worked with needed me to take down my podfic, I would in a heart beat because I do not want to fuck up someone's life. I would never deny that the author has some ownership over my podfic but I do think it's a matter of degree.

The situation that prompted this post was that I found out that an author was hosting the podfic I had made of her fic without my knowledge. I didn't actually have any problem with the how she was hosting it (it was only on her fannish website) however it did bother me that she hadn't told me. If I had a situation come up where I needed to take down my podfic I wouldn't know she had a copy of it. And there are additional privacy risks with podfic because it's harder to deny that you read and recorded something than it is to deny that you wrote something (although it's not impossible).

Also, a lot of the fears you have about opening up your fic to someone to podfic? We have about our podfics too. You mentioned worries over someone altering/selling/posting your works. We worry about that too. What if the author decides to get her fic published? What if they decide to sell the podfic as the story's audiobook? Or hell, even if they don't directly sell it, offer the audiobook as a "free" incentive to buy the book? What if the author decides to take on the legal fight for fanfic and uses her fic as an example (I've seen this happen a lot in the vidding community). Now that fic has a giant spotlight on it outside of fandom and there's a podfic that is being dragged into an increased outside awareness too. The chances of the podficer's boss/parents/religious leader/whomever finding their podfic have now gone way up. And because it's acknowledged that there's some shared ownership between the author and the podficer over the podfic, it would be expected for the podficer to bring the author into the loop of anything of that kind but the author still has complete control of their text version so, certainly in the last example, the author might not even consider consulting the podficer before just doing it.

So, yeah, podficers are dealing with the same fears and anxieties as authors, just maybe in different ways or from a different angle.

Is podfic (in your opinion, obviously opinions may vary) different from a voice recording or a piece?
What is your definition of a "voice recording or a piece" I don't think I've heard those terms so I can't really comment to that part.

That way people's expectations are spelled out, especially since there's no one set of expectations

I really like the letter you linked to, it gave me a much better idea of the sort of things I would want - I think that really is an ideal compromise between reader and writer. The middle really is a good place in this sense, after reading all the information I've been sent (Thank you all! Honestly!) I have a much better idea of the whole thing than I did before and while I can say I would still be unwilling to give up full control (my opinion, of course) I think it would be fair to give more than I had previously envisioned.

Thanks for opening my brain up a bit to the ideas - a lot of this I hadn't really taken into perspective and it makes a big difference to know how my works would theoretically be approached by a reader.

I'm honestly not really sure what I was getting at in that last line. Hah. Perhaps I need to go through and read more than once before I post. ;) But honestly, thank you again for giving me a much better idea of who it all works. I appreciate taking the time to educate a noob like me. ;)

Alter … how? I have listened, not everywhere, but fairly widely, and, except for flat out errors in reading/speaking, the "alteration" I generally see to a text is either the addition of music or the aggregation of several smaller works into a whole (i.e. reading several stories in a series and releasing the whole series as a book.)

What specific alterations are you afraid might occur "without you?"

Why do you think a podficcer might sell your work (in the context of western media fandom)? Western media fandom has a really strong taboo against selling non-visual fanwork? Why would you think podficcers would be different (with the significant exception that people do offer to record podfic as prizes in charity auctions, but, then, it is generally a case of "I will read so long of a fic of your choice" and not, "I will read this story by a third party who is not being consulted."

How do you react to people who make fanmixes or fanart of your fanfiction? How are your fears/desires of ownership of their work the same or different as with podfic?

P.S. I usually think of someone doing a podfic as performing the fanfiction, in a similar way to the way that a musician performs a song. The song exists as written, no matter what the musician does, but the musician's performance is their own.

See, I've never been remixed before (though I have gotten fan art, which does feel pretty darn amazing if I do say so) but I have to admit I'm a bit nervous there. The selling thought doesn't really bother me as much as the fear that they will take the credit and sort of run with it.

I really have an irrational fear in this, I think. After reading what everyone has posted (and seriously, thank you all so much for posting it and bringing me up to speed!) I am MUCH more comfortable with the transformative aspect of it. I think I've seen a couple times where podfic has been done badly (not quality wise, but authors that have not been asked permission for use, making changes to better suit the readers style, and in a few cases actually changing entire scenes or omitting them completely) and they really stuck with me far more than the much larger wealth of GOOD cases.

My primary fear of changes is as I've seen in the worst case scenarios: altering of the content, order, or meaning of the text due to reader preference. I have seen fic where entire sections have been cut out because the reader did not want to do sex scenes, or they had issues with pronouncing certain words so they were changed without the author's okay, or even in one instance complete removal of lines because the reader did not like them.

I would think for my work, I would have to make sure the reader was comfortable with the piece as it is and would not want to change it for recording. I am aware that this fear may seem irrational and you are probably right to think so, but I do get really attached to my words and I put them together the way I want them... to have pretty major changes made without consent really bothers me.

And I like your description, I hadn't thought of it as a performance before. :) It makes it a lot simpler for me to take it in the context of a cover version. Hah. Thank you for being patient with me.

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The Fannish Life of a Podficer

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