The Fannish Life of a Podficer

[paraka]

So, last week I got metafandomed for that post I made on why people listen to podfic. A conversation in the comments however got into ownership of podfic (how much control does the author vs. podficer have) and, well, it got me thinking. So I want to talk a little bit about what I've experienced as a podficer and my thoughts on it, and invite any other podficers to chime in.

When it comes to ownership of podfic, I think it's a 75%/25% split.

Theoretically the podficer has 75% ownership. It's their work and they can do with it what they will once they have permission from the author. The author has some claims on it since it's their story but anything they want done to the podfic has to go through the podficer. But since the podficer has most of the ownership they can choose to not do what the author asks after permission has been given. This is very much supported by the podficmeta post "Author Control (After Initial Permission)".

Practically the author has 75% ownership. As a podficer I think of a podfic as my creation. However getting into a fight with an author is... not fun. And you don't want the author leaving hating you and spreading the word that you're a horrible fannish person. Author's carry a lot more weight in fandom than podficers do. One author can complain and then their flist goes and dogpiles the podficer (hey, when I sort of had that happen to me, the author didn't even mention my name and I had everything down in under 3 hours of her making the post and I still had someone find my journal and leave a comment). And hey, even if the podficer can handle it personally, there are now all these people in fandom who are distrustful of podfic and won't allow it for their works.

So, even though I feel like my podfics are my babies, I end up giving up my ownership over it to the author, if they ask, to avoid rocking the boat. And I'm not the only one, as this post by general_jinjur shows.

And, the thing is, that's a terrifying place to be as a creator, having someone else control my works. At this point in my fannish life, podfic is my biggest contribution to fandom. I have more podfic than I do vids and fic put together. I've run a couple comms/challenges but a decent number of those were podfic related. So. It's extra scary because podfic is obviously my passion but the author may not even care about it beyond how it's applied to their fic.

I've dealt with 21 authors when it comes to podfic and have gotten the whole range or responses. I had one author who didn't even acknowledge me (they had given blanket permission and so I dropped them a comment and they never responded), I've had another author who created a podfic page on their website and made a special stats page so I could see the hits she gets on it, I've had one author tell me to take my podfic down and I currently have one author actively involved with my podficing process. Most authors fall somewhere in the middle, where they'll be happy and flattered when you ask permission and will pimp it on their journals/fic post when it's done but others can be indifferent. Only a handful of those authors have shown actual interest in my podfic beyond it being their story.

And I'm ok with all of that. I don't actually make podfic for the author. I make it for myself, for the podfic community and anyone who might be willing to give podfic a listen. If that includes the author, awesome! But I don't podfic with them specifically in mind.

But there's always the fear that because the author's are only interested in my podfic as it applies to them that they aren't going to... I don't know. Take into consideration what the podfic means to me and others. In some ways, as horrible as it sounds, I almost welcome the indifference from authors because maybe then they'll forget about what I've done and just leave me with it.

And, obviously, I would never want what I made to hurt someone else. If the author was in some kind of RL trouble and my podfic could get her in more trouble, then I'd gladly take it down. But, there are a lot of people that create things and then later decide they want to take it down (for non-critical reasons, like maybe they just don't like it anymore). And the idea that they'd just tell me to take my stuff down because they no longer like it? It's not a fun one! The one author who asked me to take my podfic of her story down never gave me a reason for it (it was a messy situation and so I felt I couldn't ask) and it still bothers me.

Podfic is still a newly popular(ish) thing. A lot of us are still stumbling around trying to decide how this is going to work. The podfic community is talking it out and deciding how we want things but there certainly isn't universal agreement (is there ever? :P). And the problem is, that the podficers and listeners are only 2/3 of the interested parties. Right now a lot of author's don't even know to get involved. They aren't taking the time to define what they want out of podfic. It's hard for a standard to be set when only one group is negotiating as a whole and the other group only has random representatives. And, as I said above, author's really aren't consistent in their attitudes toward podfic.

In the end it makes me feel kind of powerless, because I see what rights I want to have as a podficer but I also realize that they're called into question every time someone challenges them. I don't know, maybe I think about this a lot more than the average podficer because I had that one situation where I had to take my podfic down but I am nervous about this.

I can't really think of any way to fix this other than to meta about it. So, watch me meta :)

Comments

[cantarina]

We had a podfic gathering on Wincon Sunday and while most of the attendees were readers, we had two writers sit in on at least a part of the discussion and recording. We talked a little bit around some of these issues, but what really struck me most about that conversation was when one of the writers chimed in and asked what she, as a writer, could do for us as podficcers. I think we were all really pleasantly surprised and touched, because it was putting the ownership back in our hands, or at the very least, making it a collaborative effort, rather than just a format shift.

I've also had mixed bag reactions to permission asking. I've had one or two authors reply cautiously or even suspiciously, but even when they're enthusiastic, I often get the sense that they feel like I'm doing it for them... which, yes, I'm thrilled that it makes writers happy and that they enjoy the work we do - I want my authors to enjoy the readings, of enthusiasm - but I wish there was a way to reconcile the conflict between "This is my fanwork" and "This is your version of my fanwork".

[paraka]

In her podficmeta post helens78 said "It also makes me think that I wish there were a list of authors who are passionate about the value an audiofic reader lends to a story, because I would much, much rather record a story for one of those authors than for one who doesn't see that much value in it."

And while I don't really want to limit the stories that I podfic, it really does make a difference if the author is as excited about it. And knows what they're agreeing to.

I think there are authors out there that give permission, blanket permission even, but don't really consider what that means. I think it's hard because while the podfic community is discussing these things a lot of authors don't even know what podfic is. When they go in, they have a certain set of assumptions they make and assume that that's how it is.

I don't completely blame authors for this. People only have so much fannish time, it makes sense to spend it in parts of fandom you're involved in and trying to catch up on all the meta when someone asks to podfic your works is a lot of work.

I wonder if, as podficers, we should be doing more to put our positions forward. revolutionaryjo made a Dear Author post where she spelled out what she means when she asks permission. I've kind of been thinking of doing one but the way it is in my brain right now would probably scare most authors off (I'm a contract coordinator in RL and my instinct is to write something similar to what I'd use at work :S Fandom is so not the place for that though ;).

[anatsuno]

I think it makes a lot of sense, yeah. We're encouraging authors to make policy statement and give blanket permission - but not without thinking about what that means, etc - so why wouldn't we also write out our own policies... Informed consent for the win, you know? I think I'll start drafting mine out.

[cantarina]

That's a really good point. Why aren't we doing what we're asking of authors? I tend to put a lot of information into the permissions discussion, but it still leaves a lot up in the air. Except how do we write these posts without making it look like we're laying down battle lines? Do we want to create hard and fast boundaries at all?

[anatsuno]

Well, general consensus builds up from miscellanous contemporary practices and ideas, right? If I write my manifesto down it won't be the same as yours, I assume. I don't see that an individual podficcer writing their own policies down should be perceived as laying down battle lines if that person is not belligerent in their wording, and even less if it is easily obvious that podficcers don't all have the same opinions and policies. No?

I don't want to create hard and fast boundaries especially, in the sense that I believe every system needs a way to deal with unique cases and varying circumstances... but we're not talking of building an actual system (there is and won't ever be an authority of podfic) - rather we're talking about loosely connected people each thinking through for themselves what they're ready to do and not do, and we're projecting the potential consensus that could evolve over time without any status as enforceable rules, so...

Am I making any sense? The day has been long and I'm starting to droop, I admit. :)

[paraka]

I think what cantarina means by "how do we write these posts without making it look like we're laying down battle lines?" is how can we spell out what we expect from the author and lines we don't want to cross, without putting the author off.

Like, I want control of the audio copy of the fic. I don't want the author doing anything to my podfic without asking first. Or, if the author wants to take down their fic, I might not necessarily take my podfic down. How do we explain that with out putting the author off?

[anatsuno]

Well, I don't think there's any way to be sure you'll never put off anyone. If an author is not ready to think about this and come to an understanding of your pov, you'll never see eye to eye. There are people who might never give you their informed consent. But do you want their uninformed consent? No, you don't, really. So you need to know that they don't agree with you before you get into bed with them... so you can avoid it.

I believe that in the case of irreconcilable differences, it's better if everyone knows they exist. And in the case where an understanding CAN be reached, well, I'm pretty sure you can write down what you think without making it sound aggressive or off-putting to the people who can potentially agree with you.

It might /seem/ hard, but I think the part of us that thinks it's hard is actually the part secretly unable to cope with the idea that we can't all agree on everything. It's the part of us that thinks, perhaps if they didn't know everything I think they might let me record their fic anyway, and I could get away with it! That's a petty and juvenile part of us, though. Wouldn't you say? *g*

[paraka]

It might /seem/ hard, but I think the part of us that thinks it's hard is actually the part secretly unable to cope with the idea that we can't all agree on everything. It's the part of us that thinks, perhaps if they didn't know everything I think they might let me record their fic anyway, and I could get away with it!
I think it's that exactly. There's the thought, well, if they don't know, what are the chances it'll come up? But really, you're right, it's better to know this in advance.

I made the posts to podficmeta and amplificathon inviting people to brainstorm on how they'd write theirs. Hopefully that'll help me. I think it's also going to be interesting seeing what kind of expectations podficers have about this because I know reading revolutionaryjo's post that I was surprised by some of the things she said.

[anatsuno]

I shall be following the posts!

And yes, her Dear Author letter surprised me a lot too. I don't think of my work in the same way as her. It's so interesting. :)

[paraka]

Hee. I'm glad I wasn't the only one. It made me feel like I was maybe being unreasonable.

[paraka]

Ohh, I'd love to see what you do in yours. I just tried writing one out myself and it's a lot harder than I thought it'd be :S I think I might bring this over to podficmeta or amplificathon

[anatsuno]

A(nother) group discussion about it would be neat! perhaps in both places? Or a post in amplificathon and a link in podficmeta?

I haven't started drafting yet. I'm thinking :D

[cantarina]

Agreed. When our writer made her comment, it made me want to go and find a story of hers to podfic. Someone who loves what I do and respects it? How could I not want to build that relationship.

I wonder if we couldn't take this discussion to places like spnroundtable in some of the major podfic fandoms and get a broader dialogue going.

[anatsuno]

That would be interesting! If that happens please could you also bring back the links, for those of us who are in podfic without being part of SPN?

[cantarina]

If you're not in SPN fandom, do you know of any comparable communities elsewhere? Roundtable is great, but Supernatural and CWRPF are only one piece of the puzzle.

[anatsuno]

I'm not sure I know general-discussion communities... Most are focused on a pairing or a type of fanwork. I'll think about it! :)

[paraka]

I think probably the best places to talk about this are podficmeta and amplificathon.

[paraka]

Hey, so on Twitter you said "You seemed to feel strongly that owernship discussions should stay in the podfic sphere. Can I ask for more thoughts?"

Which... is not actually how I feel? I don't think it should stay only within the podfic sphere, in fact, in the original post I lamented "It's hard for a standard to be set when only one group is negotiating as a whole and the other group only has random representatives."

I think it would be amazing to have conversations outside of the podfic sphere. It wouldn't necessarily be easy since I'm sure podficcers would end up fielding a lot potentially hurtful ignorance on the subject. But the thing is, having that kind of conversation would probably help reduce instances of that in the future.

I think you got the impression that I feel these kinds of conversations should stay within podfic fandom since I suggested holding the conversations at podficmeta and amplificathon?

The reason I suggested those two places was in response to anatsuno's comment about wanting to have the discussion somewhere that wasn't just SPN specific. I took that as a suggestion to hold it somewhere that was multifannish. The only multifannish locations I could think of that would support such discussions of podfic, unfortunately, are within podfic fandom.

[cantarina]

I misunderstood you completely! *facepalms* Thanks for taking the time to come back to this, though.

I think it would be amazing to have conversations outside of the podfic sphere. It wouldn't necessarily be easy since I'm sure podficcers would end up fielding a lot potentially hurtful ignorance on the subject.
Agreed all around. It wouldn't be a terribly fun conversation, but you're right when you say it might reduce hurtful comments in the future.

And unfortunately, I can't think of anywhere better with a multifandom scope to hold that conversation either. I think it's something I'd really like to see happen though; would you be up to adding it to our monster list of eventual podfic-related projects to start thinking on?