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Ok, I promised myself I wouldn't do this, especially since I have yet to get my ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
the_reel stuff in yet, but I kind of have to, because if I don't write it down it's going to continue bugging me, and I've already spent 2 whole days thinking of very little else.
So I'm going to talk about all the wank going on in the SGA fandom at the moment.
Note: For those coming here frommetafandom please note that this was written a week ago, when things were a bit more crazy, and less thought out. Also, I fully admit that my argument perpetuates bad writing (or at the very least doesn't encourage *good* writing).
Most people are probably tired of reading it all, and please feel free to pass on by, I'm probably missing the point anyways.
So, I can understand why, as a person of colour or as someone who is particularly aware of such things (I'm not), you’d be upset if people are constantly putting people of colour in the fics you read in lower positions. You may think that it reflects a negative idea that people hold, and really that's your right. And honestly? If you want it to stop, you have to say something, because people won't change what they don't notice.
I've read some people* saying that they're being attacked for speaking up. That it isn't right that they aren't allowed to speak up about what's hurting them because it might hurt others, why should they have to hide/live with their hurt to spare others?
And really, they're right, they don't have to, but getting pissed off, and flaming some newbie? Not helping your case. And yeah, I'm sure this whole thing will have people thinking. In some good ways, and I'm sure in some bad ways as well. It may reach a wider audience than simply leaving polite notes to individual authors would. But also? It makes you look like an asshole.
Also people keep bringing up that people don't write fics about people of colour because they're afraid to. And while I can't speak for authors (I'm not even one myself) I don't think skin colour would ever stop me from either reading a fic, or, say, making a vid about a character. In fact two of my favourite vids in the SG fandoms, that can continually move me to the point of almost tears are about Teal'c and Teyla/Ronon respectively (They sort of touch on the whole race thing, but with Teal'c the vid is more about him being an alien on the all human SG-1 team, and the Teyla/Ronon one was more about being strong).
Maybe people are avoiding writing about them because of the colour of their skin, and put them into minor roles in fic for the same reasons. But really? Honestly? I think the reason people of colour and women from the show are being put into these roles, isn't out of disrespect, it isn't because people are "afraid." And it isn't because they're racist, or think white men should have a higher place in society whether conscious or unconscious.
I think the problem lies in the fact that you're preaching mostly to McShep slash writers!
People aren't going to put their OTP in a crappy position, unless it's part of the plot of their stories, a lot of people do the opposite, putting their OTPs in grandiose positions. Often these fics are all about John and Rodney, only adding other people in where they fit. So you're writing an Earth side AU and want to include the rest of the team? Well you're going to fit them in where you can. Sure you could make Ronon Rodney's business partner, but given their characters, what the hell are they doing? You could make him a co-worker, but, well, they're only co-workers in canon due to some pretty interesting situations. If you're writing something like 'what if the stargate didn't exist' well there are already beloved canon co-workers for Rodney, so why try to jam Ronon into that position?
John fits better with Ronon and Teyla, ebcause really Rodney's kind of the odd man out on the team in many ways. I think Teyla is an easier character to put in an Earth fic, because she's a bit more rounded, and her skills are a bit more transferable, really Ronon is so often portrayed as the run totin' muscle on the show, that it's hard to picture him as, I don't know, an accountant.
And that reminds me of another point that was brought up. "If you try I don't see why you can't give Ronon a reasonable/equal job." And that's very true. I'm one of these people that's willing to be lead. If it were written well, you could totally convince me that Ronon would make an amazing accountant who does origami in his spare time. But! who honestly puts that much thought into a secondary character for an OTP fic?
I'm not going to sit down and write a chapter about Elizabeth's dark secret past, or Lorne's family history, or Zeleka's hobbies, unless it directly affects my OTP storyline. So why should I have to do so just for Ronon because he's not white (because a lot of people have mentioned that they probably wouldn't have batted an eye if he were white)?
Because honestly? I don't really think people go in thinking of Ronon or Teyla as not white. In fact I think they probably would be treated the same way if they were white. If people have trouble fitting them in AUs it's due more to the fact that on the show they're from another planet than because of the colour of their skin.
But on that note, and this may be because I have blinders on, or maybe because I'm reading the wrong (? or more likely right) fics, but I haven't seen this phenomenon. I can think of two fics, and two fics only (well off the top of my head) where Ronon and Teyla have been set apart from the others in a way that could be considered applicable to this debacle.
The first being the cat fic that has gotten so much wank, and I only thought of it because it got so much wank (which I suppose points to the blinders argument, but whatever). Which I don't actually buy. I don't agree that the author turned Ronon and Teyla into cats because they weren't white (although, I don't actually think people are saying that, just that they were taken aback that the only people of colour on the show were the ones turned, and I suppose I can understand that), but I accept the authors statement that she did so because she wanted to include the team, and it was fun. I'm sure that had it been an SG-1 Jack/Daniel fic, she wouldn't have hesitated to turn Sam into a cat.
The second one had Ronon and Teyla abused as children, but it was only mentioned to explain other-worldliness and reserved qualities since they were on earth.
Seriously though, most of the earth AUs I can think of, have Elizabeth and Teyla in high positions. Often as the boss or equal of either John or Rodney. And if they're in a lower position, than they're at a lower position with John and/or Rodney. Ronon, well I can't really think of many examples with him, but when I do he's often either John's best friend or something, or he's a body guard (kind of like on the show).
In the end, because I'm stopping now, even though I hate racism, and want to be against anything that can be perceived as racism, I really can't get behind the arguments people are making on the "you're (unconsciously) racist side because 1. I haven't seen it (I might come back in a month and change that, since I'm sure to be more aware after this, and I suppose that's kind of their whole point) so really can't get behind their frustrations, and 2. I don't really think Ronon and Teyla would be treated any different if they were white.
A lot of what sets them apart from John and Rodney is that they're aliens to us, and people have said they seem more alien to us because of their skin colour, and that may be true, but I've watched 12 1/2 seasons of Stargate, and I've seen white people be able to pull off the alien thing, so really....
I'm going to stop now, and hopefully get on with other things now. If someone really has read this, well, I'm sorry if it was ramble-y.
*I can put up links of anyone actually cares, but I'm assuming no one but myself is actually reading this, so I'm not citing anything unless asked. *shrugs*
the_reel stuff in yet, but I kind of have to, because if I don't write it down it's going to continue bugging me, and I've already spent 2 whole days thinking of very little else. So I'm going to talk about all the wank going on in the SGA fandom at the moment.
Note: For those coming here from
metafandom please note that this was written a week ago, when things were a bit more crazy, and less thought out. Also, I fully admit that my argument perpetuates bad writing (or at the very least doesn't encourage *good* writing). Most people are probably tired of reading it all, and please feel free to pass on by, I'm probably missing the point anyways.
So, I can understand why, as a person of colour or as someone who is particularly aware of such things (I'm not), you’d be upset if people are constantly putting people of colour in the fics you read in lower positions. You may think that it reflects a negative idea that people hold, and really that's your right. And honestly? If you want it to stop, you have to say something, because people won't change what they don't notice.
I've read some people* saying that they're being attacked for speaking up. That it isn't right that they aren't allowed to speak up about what's hurting them because it might hurt others, why should they have to hide/live with their hurt to spare others?
And really, they're right, they don't have to, but getting pissed off, and flaming some newbie? Not helping your case. And yeah, I'm sure this whole thing will have people thinking. In some good ways, and I'm sure in some bad ways as well. It may reach a wider audience than simply leaving polite notes to individual authors would. But also? It makes you look like an asshole.
Also people keep bringing up that people don't write fics about people of colour because they're afraid to. And while I can't speak for authors (I'm not even one myself) I don't think skin colour would ever stop me from either reading a fic, or, say, making a vid about a character. In fact two of my favourite vids in the SG fandoms, that can continually move me to the point of almost tears are about Teal'c and Teyla/Ronon respectively (They sort of touch on the whole race thing, but with Teal'c the vid is more about him being an alien on the all human SG-1 team, and the Teyla/Ronon one was more about being strong).
Maybe people are avoiding writing about them because of the colour of their skin, and put them into minor roles in fic for the same reasons. But really? Honestly? I think the reason people of colour and women from the show are being put into these roles, isn't out of disrespect, it isn't because people are "afraid." And it isn't because they're racist, or think white men should have a higher place in society whether conscious or unconscious.
I think the problem lies in the fact that you're preaching mostly to McShep slash writers!
People aren't going to put their OTP in a crappy position, unless it's part of the plot of their stories, a lot of people do the opposite, putting their OTPs in grandiose positions. Often these fics are all about John and Rodney, only adding other people in where they fit. So you're writing an Earth side AU and want to include the rest of the team? Well you're going to fit them in where you can. Sure you could make Ronon Rodney's business partner, but given their characters, what the hell are they doing? You could make him a co-worker, but, well, they're only co-workers in canon due to some pretty interesting situations. If you're writing something like 'what if the stargate didn't exist' well there are already beloved canon co-workers for Rodney, so why try to jam Ronon into that position?
John fits better with Ronon and Teyla, ebcause really Rodney's kind of the odd man out on the team in many ways. I think Teyla is an easier character to put in an Earth fic, because she's a bit more rounded, and her skills are a bit more transferable, really Ronon is so often portrayed as the run totin' muscle on the show, that it's hard to picture him as, I don't know, an accountant.
And that reminds me of another point that was brought up. "If you try I don't see why you can't give Ronon a reasonable/equal job." And that's very true. I'm one of these people that's willing to be lead. If it were written well, you could totally convince me that Ronon would make an amazing accountant who does origami in his spare time. But! who honestly puts that much thought into a secondary character for an OTP fic?
I'm not going to sit down and write a chapter about Elizabeth's dark secret past, or Lorne's family history, or Zeleka's hobbies, unless it directly affects my OTP storyline. So why should I have to do so just for Ronon because he's not white (because a lot of people have mentioned that they probably wouldn't have batted an eye if he were white)?
Because honestly? I don't really think people go in thinking of Ronon or Teyla as not white. In fact I think they probably would be treated the same way if they were white. If people have trouble fitting them in AUs it's due more to the fact that on the show they're from another planet than because of the colour of their skin.
But on that note, and this may be because I have blinders on, or maybe because I'm reading the wrong (? or more likely right) fics, but I haven't seen this phenomenon. I can think of two fics, and two fics only (well off the top of my head) where Ronon and Teyla have been set apart from the others in a way that could be considered applicable to this debacle.
The first being the cat fic that has gotten so much wank, and I only thought of it because it got so much wank (which I suppose points to the blinders argument, but whatever). Which I don't actually buy. I don't agree that the author turned Ronon and Teyla into cats because they weren't white (although, I don't actually think people are saying that, just that they were taken aback that the only people of colour on the show were the ones turned, and I suppose I can understand that), but I accept the authors statement that she did so because she wanted to include the team, and it was fun. I'm sure that had it been an SG-1 Jack/Daniel fic, she wouldn't have hesitated to turn Sam into a cat.
The second one had Ronon and Teyla abused as children, but it was only mentioned to explain other-worldliness and reserved qualities since they were on earth.
Seriously though, most of the earth AUs I can think of, have Elizabeth and Teyla in high positions. Often as the boss or equal of either John or Rodney. And if they're in a lower position, than they're at a lower position with John and/or Rodney. Ronon, well I can't really think of many examples with him, but when I do he's often either John's best friend or something, or he's a body guard (kind of like on the show).
In the end, because I'm stopping now, even though I hate racism, and want to be against anything that can be perceived as racism, I really can't get behind the arguments people are making on the "you're (unconsciously) racist side because 1. I haven't seen it (I might come back in a month and change that, since I'm sure to be more aware after this, and I suppose that's kind of their whole point) so really can't get behind their frustrations, and 2. I don't really think Ronon and Teyla would be treated any different if they were white.
A lot of what sets them apart from John and Rodney is that they're aliens to us, and people have said they seem more alien to us because of their skin colour, and that may be true, but I've watched 12 1/2 seasons of Stargate, and I've seen white people be able to pull off the alien thing, so really....
I'm going to stop now, and hopefully get on with other things now. If someone really has read this, well, I'm sorry if it was ramble-y.
*I can put up links of anyone actually cares, but I'm assuming no one but myself is actually reading this, so I'm not citing anything unless asked. *shrugs*
Re: via metafandom
My post was written specifically for people who want a ghetto pass, i.e. who want to be accorded the assumption by fans of color that they have worked on their race issues, that any racist acts they commit are abberant behavior, that they welcome and support discussion of race issues, etc. I specifically said, If it's more important to you to live as a scientist than to have a ghetto pass, that's a choice you get to make and I won't condemn you for it. But if you want Fans of Color to assume that you are an ally in the fight against racism, then, yes, you have to assume we are telling the truth when we talk about skanky race issues.
1) Examples were given in this go-round. In
2) It is not the job of Fans of Color to educate you about race issues. There is a lot of material on the Internet about race and colonial issues, and if you live in the States (and, I believe also Canada) there are many books on the issue, quite possibly available at your local library.
3) I read one of Suzette Haden Elgin's books on the Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense. Most of it didn't stick, but the one insight I did take away was this: if someone says a statement that does not make sense to you under the current circumstance, try to imagine the circumstances under which the statement would be true. This is probably a lot closer to the world in which lives the person with whom you are having the discussion.
I've done that (http://witchqueen.livejournal.com/2385.html) and I've done follow up work when people said they didn't know how to write Characters of Color (http://witchqueen.livejournal.com/366922.html). This is not at all the first time this discussion has come up in fandom, but it probably is the longest I've seen it sustained.
Re: via metafandom
I'm sorry, I do realize that, it's just that statement goes against everything I believe in. Is it more important for me to be a scientist? Maybe, I've just lived parts of my life believing what people tell me to believe without questioning it, and looking back now, I wonder at how stupid I was. The way I've lived my life just does not allow me to take a statement, no matter the source, without examining *why* I'm willing to believe it, wondering *should* I believe it.
1) Examples were given in this go-round. In lierdumoa's first reply to omglawdork, she spelled out really explicitly what the issue she had with the story was. When liviapenn followed up, she was also extraordinarily explicit about her examples. However, people decided that a) the examples were insufficient and b) did not give any indication of what level of examples they would find convincing.
I think the wording of this entire debate has been holding back some of the real issues. People keep going on about a "growing trend" but when all we can find are 4-10 fics that actually fit the description, out of hundreds, probably thousands, then no, for me it's not sufficient data. Especially since to me, I don't feel that the characters are put in such positions because of their colour, consciously or not, I think it's more about good/bad writing, which is what my post is trying to convey.
This is not at all the first time this discussion has come up in fandom, but it probably is the longest I've seen it sustained.
Yeah, I read about this last weekend, and didn't see anything else really about it until yesterday (I'm mostly a lurker in the SGA fandom, there's not much on my flist, and I stopped *looking* for it). I was quite surprised to see it still being discussed, because fandom is fickle, if intense. I also do realize it's been discussed before a lot of posts have been dug up from archives, and it only makes sense that it's been discussed before, and I would *die* of *shock* if this were the last discussion on it.
And if it makes you feel better, this discussion *has* been making people think, and I think it is helping. I may not agree with the actual application in this instance, but I do understand and believe in the underlying principle.
Re: via metafandom
One statement: this position reads to me as if you are the final arbiter of when I can claim I've been insulted. That's infuriating.
Two questions: How many instances of this repositioning would it take for you to conclude there was a trend? How many instances of an SGA member being turned into a penguin did you have to see before you believed that was a trend?
Re: via metafandom
My statement actually had nothing to do with your personal feelings, I'm sorry you took it as such. My statement actually has to do with what *I* choose to feel. What I choose to believe.
You're saying that you're infuriated when I try and claim that I have ultimate authority on a matter (and I'm sorry that I made you angry), but it's ok when you do? Sure you have ultimate authority over who *you* give these "passes" to, but it's my choice to *think* instead of just believing things, and while you're not *saying* I'm a bad person for trying to have independent thoughts, you are saying I'm someone that... I don't know, isn't worthy in some ways?
How many instances of this repositioning would it take for you to conclude there was a trend? How many instances of an SGA member being turned into a penguin did you have to see before you believed that was a trend?
To be honest? I'm not sure. I think it for me to really believe this, I'd have to see evidence myself. I will certainly consider what people are saying, and watch for this trend. But as things stand *with me* now, I haven't seen this trend, and thinking back on things that I've read, I don't even see if I've missed anything. I have stated that give me a month, and I might have completely changed my mind.
As for the penguin thing. I certainly wouldn't categorize it as a growing trend either. I can only think of maybe 3-5 fics that had it, I'd call it an instance, I'd call it an idea that people briefly latched onto. If I were to go back to reading fics and realize that every second fic, every 10, every 100th fic included it, and continued to display such tendencies, *then* I'd consider it a trend. And you know what? When I reached that conclusion, it'd be my conclusion, and mine alone. I have never professed to speak for fandom. In fact, as a massive lurker, I hardly even speak for myself. I'm not saying that you have to follow my way of thinking. My original post was an alternative look at the position of secondary characters. I wrote it mostly to put my thoughts down. I'm not going to try and convince you I'm right. I'm not going to say that your observations, or feelings are wrong, I'm simply stating that they aren't my observations. I'm also saying I'm not going to follow a trend that doesn't fit with what I'm observing, simply because it's a trend. That's why, the amount of posts about this topic lately, has me thinking, and considering, but until I personally observe it, I'm sorry, I'm not just going to believe it.
And I'm sorry if this offends you, I'm sorry if it makes you feel like I'm trying to dictate what you should be feeling, really, I'm just trying to logically approach my *own* feelings.
Re: via metafandom
Second, the reason I am dismissive of your demands for proof is that white people often demand proof in order to dismiss a claim of racism. I am particularly dismissive when you cannot articulate what level of evidence is sufficient to convince you of that claim, because that means you can always claim that the level of evidence submitted is insufficient proof. (For instance, when it was mentioned in Livia's post that turning Teyla and Ronon into cats was an instance of setting their socioeconomic status below John and Rodney, that claim was disputed as potential evidence on the basis that cats have a special beloved status. I don't know in what other circumstance literally dehumanizing a character would not be seen as proof of putting them in a lower status than another character.)
Third, "I'm sorry if I hurt you" and "I'm sorry you misunderstood me" are not actual apologies.
Fourth, I understand that you are talking about what you need personally to support the claims. But in the context where people deflected the discussion of racism with claims that baristas were not lower class and discussion of the special status of cats, with repeated insistence that fanfiction and fandom was the wrong venue for discussing racial issues, by blaming the source material for making CoCs boring, and by claiming that productive discussion was impossible because
Last but not least, It isn't your independent thought I disapprove of. But your stance appears to be, "Although I never considered the question before, I didn't remember this thing standing out to me, so I decided the fans of color were making shit up and theorized an alternate explanation for what they thought they saw." If your independent stance were instead, "I had never observed this phenomenon, but because I believe that independent and objective observation is the best standard from which to discuss things, I checked the last # SGA AUs I had read and found …," I wouldn't feel like you were just assuming fans of color were wrong because you were uncomfortable with our conclusions.
Re: here via metafandom
All paraka is trying to say is that she can't believe it, and once again it seems you take it as an insult against yourself.
Your evidence has little to no statistical significance, you refuse to try and educate people on what you believe is wrong. Frankly, you seem to be attacking people right and left.
I feel too that you are trying to force me into your belief with no thought to any cultural background or experiences I may have had. It very disappointing that people today are still trying to force beliefs upon other people without even trying to back it up. And when people do look back and still see no trend, you simply take the stance that they are wrong. There is no right answer in your world except to agree with you.
This is probably going to be the last I hear about this because fandom wank isn't my thing, but as somebody else said in regards to paraka post, I feel I have to repeat it too you.
"Witchqueen, in my mind, you've made the world a sadder place."
Re: here via metafandom
Feelings aren't enough.
Re: via metafandom
And I'm still kinda unhappy about that assumption on your part, but not actively anymore, since you know, I do actually spend enough time online to realize that tone and intentions are often badly conveyed by the textual medium and when emotions are involved, everything's read through a different type of filter. Somehow, I was read as attacking the idea instead of requesting clarification--that happens a lot on the internet, and people realize it and go back to fix it or make an explanation. Like, I read you as making a blanket statement that no one should ever question an assertation like the one that was made regarding racism, using me as an example.
Other people clarified what you possibly meant, but it was still really frustrating. Because honestly, I do not get the idea that the assumption that someone--say, me--would openly engage in troll behavior in my own fandom. If I was going to troll--which I never have--I wouldn't do it where I live--that's just logic. And that would assume that my entire fannish behavior up until this point has been some of the best acting seen off Broadway. And while Ratcreature's examples clarified some of the general problems found in SGA fanfic--and for that matter, all fanfic, which I agree with, esp in regards to the treatment of other civilizations in Pegasus in fic--it doesn't change the fact you assumed I was attacking the idea. I literally read every post I made, just to make sure, and I just don't see it as combative. Not as careful as I definitely could have been, I can see that, but as an example of an attack?
I'm sorry, no. I'm sorry people took it that way, and I regret that I wasn't more careful in my wording on some of the posts, but I do reserve the right to be a little hurt by it.
Re: via metafandom
You say that isn't what you meant, and I believe you, but in the context of emrin's post, which was wholly dismissive of the topic and diverted into classism once again, I don't think my initial interpretation was crazy.
And I also don't understand why you think it's crazy that anyone could be hostile or dismissive? Emrin was dismissive. mapsandlegends was hostile. (http://mapsandlegends.livejournal.com/75922.html?format=light) apetslife thinks the problem is that the Actors of Color aren't hot enough. (http://apetslife.livejournal.com/1122927.html) Hell, the post we're in right now is dismissive of the problem.
Re: via metafandom
See, this part is *about* me. The overreaching issue is so much bigger and more important and stronger, and *should be discussed*; the entire reason when I took this to my flist, I locked it down to flist, because I don't want my personal experience *in general* distracting from the origin point--how to work against either conscious or unconscious racism.
The thing is here, you didn't give me--or a lot of people--teh benefit of the doubt. I had to apologize for the fact I *asked*, I had to apologize for something I didn't do, didn't even *consider* doing, I had to apologize for your assumptions on my motives when the easiest and fastest thing to do is just say, okay, jenn, this sounds combative, I'm guessing you're not going for that. AT which time, the convo woudl have been, me, damn, sorry, I'm not sure of x, y, and z, but you do know this, so what's the deal? And voila. You would know i wasn't a troll, I wouldn't be publicly labeled as one, and I'd have the information I watned, or a pointer toward it, or more than a three story sampler.
If I was dismissive, I wouldn't even have bothered in teh discussion, instead of looking around, reading the threads, searching up information, talking to people, working out what otheres are seeing that I missed.
I really--I get this is sensitive. I do. And I don't go out of my way to do damage, I never have, and I never will. But not seeing somethign doesn't equal denial--it just means that apparently there *is* something and I missed it. And I have no idea--none at this point--how to get that across in a way that doesn't sound denialist. Teh framework to this debate is set up in a way that automatically is putting everyone who doesn't instnatly see and agree into a position that they have to *defend themselves* from being racist before the discussion even starts.
And this is probably making paraka uncomfortable. If you'd liek to continue this in email, I'd sincerely appreciate it, if you're not tired of the subject already. It's listed in my userinfo, er, I think. Or just the seperis @livejournal.