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Ok, I promised myself I wouldn't do this, especially since I have yet to get my

the_reel stuff in yet, but I kind of have to, because if I don't write it down it's going to continue bugging me, and I've already spent 2 whole days thinking of very little else.

So I'm going to talk about all the wank going on in the SGA fandom at the moment.

Note: For those coming here from

metafandom please note that this was written a week ago, when things were a bit more crazy, and less thought out. Also, I fully admit that my argument perpetuates bad writing (or at the very least doesn't encourage *good* writing).

Most people are probably tired of reading it all, and please feel free to pass on by, I'm probably missing the point anyways.

So, I can understand why, as a person of colour or as someone who is particularly aware of such things (I'm not), you’d be upset if people are constantly putting people of colour in the fics you read in lower positions. You may think that it reflects a negative idea that people hold, and really that's your right. And honestly? If you want it to stop, you have to say something, because people won't change what they don't notice.

I've read some people* saying that they're being attacked for speaking up. That it isn't right that they aren't allowed to speak up about what's hurting them because it might hurt others, why should they have to hide/live with their hurt to spare others?
And really, they're right, they don't have to, but getting pissed off, and flaming some newbie? Not helping your case. And yeah, I'm sure this whole thing will have people thinking. In some good ways, and I'm sure in some bad ways as well. It may reach a wider audience than simply leaving polite notes to individual authors would. But also? It makes you look like an asshole.

Also people keep bringing up that people don't write fics about people of colour because they're afraid to. And while I can't speak for authors (I'm not even one myself) I don't think skin colour would ever stop me from either reading a fic, or, say, making a vid about a character. In fact two of my favourite vids in the SG fandoms, that can continually move me to the point of almost tears are about Teal'c and Teyla/Ronon respectively (They sort of touch on the whole race thing, but with Teal'c the vid is more about him being an alien on the all human SG-1 team, and the Teyla/Ronon one was more about being strong).

Maybe people are avoiding writing about them because of the colour of their skin, and put them into minor roles in fic for the same reasons. But really? Honestly? I think the reason people of colour and women from the show are being put into these roles, isn't out of disrespect, it isn't because people are "afraid." And it isn't because they're racist, or think white men should have a higher place in society whether conscious or unconscious.

I think the problem lies in the fact that you're preaching mostly to McShep slash writers!

People aren't going to put their OTP in a crappy position, unless it's part of the plot of their stories, a lot of people do the opposite, putting their OTPs in grandiose positions. Often these fics are all about John and Rodney, only adding other people in where they fit. So you're writing an Earth side AU and want to include the rest of the team? Well you're going to fit them in where you can. Sure you could make Ronon Rodney's business partner, but given their characters, what the hell are they doing? You could make him a co-worker, but, well, they're only co-workers in canon due to some pretty interesting situations. If you're writing something like 'what if the stargate didn't exist' well there are already beloved canon co-workers for Rodney, so why try to jam Ronon into that position?
John fits better with Ronon and Teyla, ebcause really Rodney's kind of the odd man out on the team in many ways. I think Teyla is an easier character to put in an Earth fic, because she's a bit more rounded, and her skills are a bit more transferable, really Ronon is so often portrayed as the run totin' muscle on the show, that it's hard to picture him as, I don't know, an accountant.

And that reminds me of another point that was brought up. "If you try I don't see why you can't give Ronon a reasonable/equal job." And that's very true. I'm one of these people that's willing to be lead. If it were written well, you could totally convince me that Ronon would make an amazing accountant who does origami in his spare time. But! who honestly puts that much thought into a secondary character for an OTP fic?
I'm not going to sit down and write a chapter about Elizabeth's dark secret past, or Lorne's family history, or Zeleka's hobbies, unless it directly affects my OTP storyline. So why should I have to do so just for Ronon because he's not white (because a lot of people have mentioned that they probably wouldn't have batted an eye if he were white)?

Because honestly? I don't really think people go in thinking of Ronon or Teyla as not white. In fact I think they probably would be treated the same way if they were white. If people have trouble fitting them in AUs it's due more to the fact that on the show they're from another planet than because of the colour of their skin.

But on that note, and this may be because I have blinders on, or maybe because I'm reading the wrong (? or more likely right) fics, but I haven't seen this phenomenon. I can think of two fics, and two fics only (well off the top of my head) where Ronon and Teyla have been set apart from the others in a way that could be considered applicable to this debacle.
The first being the cat fic that has gotten so much wank, and I only thought of it because it got so much wank (which I suppose points to the blinders argument, but whatever). Which I don't actually buy. I don't agree that the author turned Ronon and Teyla into cats because they weren't white (although, I don't actually think people are saying that, just that they were taken aback that the only people of colour on the show were the ones turned, and I suppose I can understand that), but I accept the authors statement that she did so because she wanted to include the team, and it was fun. I'm sure that had it been an SG-1 Jack/Daniel fic, she wouldn't have hesitated to turn Sam into a cat.
The second one had Ronon and Teyla abused as children, but it was only mentioned to explain other-worldliness and reserved qualities since they were on earth.

Seriously though, most of the earth AUs I can think of, have Elizabeth and Teyla in high positions. Often as the boss or equal of either John or Rodney. And if they're in a lower position, than they're at a lower position with John and/or Rodney. Ronon, well I can't really think of many examples with him, but when I do he's often either John's best friend or something, or he's a body guard (kind of like on the show).

In the end, because I'm stopping now, even though I hate racism, and want to be against anything that can be perceived as racism, I really can't get behind the arguments people are making on the "you're (unconsciously) racist side because 1. I haven't seen it (I might come back in a month and change that, since I'm sure to be more aware after this, and I suppose that's kind of their whole point) so really can't get behind their frustrations, and 2. I don't really think Ronon and Teyla would be treated any different if they were white.

A lot of what sets them apart from John and Rodney is that they're aliens to us, and people have said they seem more alien to us because of their skin colour, and that may be true, but I've watched 12 1/2 seasons of Stargate, and I've seen white people be able to pull off the alien thing, so really....

I'm going to stop now, and hopefully get on with other things now. If someone really has read this, well, I'm sorry if it was ramble-y.

*I can put up links of anyone actually cares, but I'm assuming no one but myself is actually reading this, so I'm not citing anything unless asked. *shrugs*

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

It wasn't ramble_y at all. I don't know this fandom...at all so I can't comment on that but I will say that your post was well thought out and nicely written.

;-)

Good to know it came out ok, it's just, the *whole* fandom exploded this week. There were people who left, a really popular writer closed her journal, one person went on a witch hunt type defriending binge... not really all that nice.

I don't know this fandom...at all so I can't comment on that
Basically there are these big stone rings, that can form wormholes in them that allow you to instantaneously travel to other planets, even other galaxies. An international group of scientists and military move to the lost city of Atlantis where they play with alien technology and fight space vampires. It's pretty great actually, and gives writers a lot of freedom, because with the canon presented on the show anything's possible (seriously, AUs are canon, in one ep, the character gets superpowers, there's time travel, and alien drugs, oh the possibilities).

The main cast are:
John Sheppard: Military commander, and goof-ball extraordinaire (like a good 70% of fanfic, and like 90% of slash fanfic are McShep, or Sheppard/McKay). He's a white late 30s male.
Rodney McKay: Head of the science department, and resident genius. If something goes wrong he's the one to go to, and he'll be the first to tell you! He's boastful, arrogant, snarky, and cute as hell. He's also on Sheppard’s team when they go off world to explore. He's a white late 30s male
Teyla Emmagan: She is from Athos, a planet that was destroyed by the Wraith (space!vampires) in the first ep. She's the leader of her people, and the negotiator and warrior princess of Sheppard's team. She's a mid-late 20s person of colour.
Ronon Dex: He's from a destroyed world called Sateda. When the Wraith attacked his world he was taken captive for dinner, but some genetic thingy stopped them from being able to eat him, so they put a tracking device in his back, and chased him from planet to planet for fun. He joined the cast in season 2 when they helped remove the device, and joined Sheppard’s team. He likes big guns, killing Wraith, and helps "train" the Earthling in fighting techniques (read as he kicks their ass). He doesn't talk much, and has really fun hair. He's a mid-late 20s person of colour.

This is the main team that we watch but there's also:
Elizabeth Weir: She the leader of the expedition, and a world famous diplomat (so they say, we haven't really seen this). She's a white woman in her late 30s.
Carson Beckett: The lovable Scottish Chief of Medicine. He's technically in the main credits, but not that big of a player on the show. Actually he was killed off a few episodes ago (and I want him back!). He's a white late 30s male.
Redak Zelenka: He's a Czech scientist, who's probably the only one able to keep up with (and stand!) Rodney. He's not in the main credits, but fans still love him. He's the Ron McLean to Rodney's Don Cherry! (which is an analogy you probably won't get...) He's a late 30s early 40s white male.
Evan Lorne: He's a military guy that shows up once and a while. Again he doesn't have a big part, but the fans love him, and he's probably the next in line of the Atlantis military. He's a late 30s male.

This has all probably been way too much information for you (sorry :P) But as you can see, in the main team we have 2 white males, and two younger people of colour. And then a few others that are mentioned but aren’t even in all that many episodes.

Just think about the QaF fic that you’ve read. I’m assuming you’ve mostly read B/J stuff. How often do writers give people like Ted, Emmett and Debbie a lot of notice? Even Michael who’s Brian’s best friend. Especially in Aus. I mean, I’ve seen Emmett end up as a nurse, Michael as a criminal, Deb’s often still the mother figure if she’s there, but mostly, author’s will fit the other characters in where they can. Oh, it’s a hospital fic, let’s make Emmett the nurse. They often get put in, but they’re always off to the side. It’s the same thing in the SGA fandom. All anyone really cares about is Sheppard and McKay, and they’ll just stick the others in where they can fit. The fact that Ronon and Teyla are coloured has nothing to do with it, or the fact that Teyla and Elizabeth are women. It’s just, people love their OTP. And *that’s* the point I think a lot of people aren’t considering in this whole thing. Yeah the two prominent white males often get the best parts in fic, but that’s because the fic is about them.

Here via metafandom, but: The fic that was originally picked out was *not*, as far as I could tell, an OTP fic, and the issue was not about giving minor characters more screen time but the way they were presented in the screen time they *did* have. In addition, apart from the original spark, the vast, vast majority of the discussion I've seen has been thoughtful and reasonable.

who honestly puts that much thought into a secondary character for an OTP fic?

Sure, I see what you're saying there. No one should expect detailed background for Ronon or Teyla or Carson or Zelenka in my John/Rodney OTP fic, because that's not the story that's being told. But I think the question is - okay, when I don't put too much thought into it but choose to write these characters anyway, how do I end up writing them? What, for example, are my automatic assumptions about the likely status of Zelenka or Teyla in an Earth AU? And - which I think is the central question - do those assumptions come purely from canon, or from extrapolations from canon, or from stereotypes (race isn't the only one in play here, gender could be too) about the real world? I'd say I have canon reasons to write Teyla as unusually dignified and restrained, and in a job which requires some sort of diplomatic and/or ass-kicking skills. If I automatically start out writing her as a maid - well. I'd need to stop, and think about whether I'm drawing on canon evidence for that or I'm drawing on my own stereotypes about the kind of jobs brown people have. That doesn't mean I write out her life history. But it takes more work, working purely from canon, to explain how someone like Teyla could end up a maid than it does to just assume that, in the John/Rodney lawyers-in-love epic, she's also a lawyer who went to school with John and does a lot of commercial arbitration.

That's not to say that you can't write Teyla as a maid, of course, or that everyone in fandom is writing her as a maid all the time. I don't think people are necessarily accusing others of drawing on stereotypes all the time. But it's fair to raise the question. It's pretty useful, actually. In the world we live in, there is at least a risk of careless stereotyping based on race and gender and I'm grateful to be made aware of it - so that the next time I'm writing about John and Rodney and how they're dorkily in love forever, I won't casually reference savage natives or Ronon's barbaric hair or any of the other stuff that's coming from race stereotypes in my head and not from canon. Not just because there's a risk of those stereotypes offending people - though that's important - but also because it's just bad writing.

People aren't going to put their OTP in a crappy position, unless it's part of the plot of their stories, a lot of people do the opposite, putting their OTPs in grandiose positions.

You do know that you're not speaking for all of fandom here, right? I would dearly love to see at least one AU where Rodney is down on his luck, and I'm willing to be that some fans would feel the same. Even if John is broke, Rodney's almost a dot.com billionarie--and yes I know there's a canon AU about that--or wealthy from something else. When he's not rich, he's still in a position respected by society as a whole--like a tenured professor at a prestigious university. Seeing him as a dot.com refugee would be great.

As for not putting a lot of thought into secondary characters, if the fic focuses almost exclusively on Rodney and John, then no you don't have to have detailed backstories for the minor characters in the fic. But if you need a really minor character in that fic, is it really that much trouble to try to use one who fits the role, however minor?

Say an AU writer has John as a suburban single dad. Quick, who's the guy down the street that he runs with in the morning? Ronon or Lorne? Half a second's thought would lead one to Ronon since John runs with him in freakin' canon, and that would a nice, cute, easy nod to canon. But I bet a lot of people, completely and utterly without the intent to perpetuate stereotypes, would pick Lorne. Because society tells us that if John's running in a nice middle-class neighborhood then of course his neighbor is white.

Or the writer could just use a non-canon character for their really minor AU character. The thing that annoys people is when AU writers do use canon characters in a fic and they've given more thought to the Cadman character than to the Teyla character or more thought to the Lorne character than to the Ronon character.

Here via metafandom
OMG, I'm sorry, but who actually reads my journal? I'm a little shocked, and I might have said things differently had I actually thought anyone would read this, but then again maybe not.

The fic that was originally picked out was *not*, as far as I could tell, an OTP fic
Maybe your definition of OTP fic are different (being totally serious here), but to me a fic that is about a specific couple and their love (problems) is an OTP fic. The original barista fic was a McShep first time AU. Sure there were other characters in it (hense all this) but the story was basically all about them getting together. Which under my personal definition of OTP fic fits.

I'd be interested to hear what your definition is. I know that mine is probably a bit too liberal, where any fic that has one pairing as the main focus falls under OTP, I would honestly like to know what other peoples definition is.

the issue was not about giving minor characters more screen time but the way they were presented in the screen time they *did* have.
And I *do* understand that. My point was (and I've formulated it a bit better in my mind since this post about a week ago) is that I can't really get behind the fact that sticking Ronon/Teyla in these lower positions is done out of any form of racism conscious or unconscious mostly because it's a phenomenon that occurs with secondary characters regardless of colour. I've been in other fandoms where this happens *a lot* but all the secondary characters are white so no one cares. Also I can't get behind it because from what I've observed, SGA handles secondary characters much better than the other fandoms I'm in. They're included more, they're included in accurate lights more (than my other fandoms), they're just better for it. As I said in my post, I can think of two SGA (ok, a third one was pointed out to me) that fit this "trend" but I can think of at least 20 Queer as Folk fandom that do the same to Emmett, Ted, or Michael, I could give you 200 off the top of my head that turn Michael into a bad guy... but I digress :P

the issue was not about giving minor characters more screen time but the way they were presented in the screen time they *did* have.
And I'm sure there has been, but I found out about this when someone on my flist posted a link to the whole cat thing at

liviapenns journal (just the cat part). Then I read the original post, then

permetaform.... it didn't exactly give me the best start. :P Also, I don't actually have all that many SGA people on my flist, so I haven't been running across much there, and have only got the fandom_wank version, so my views on it are very likely skewed.

re: OTP fic, I think I was mixing up my fics, sorry. But the point was more that it was a *trend* more than in one fic- SGA AUs in particular, but also pretty consistent cross-fandom- and that white minor characters *do* get treated differently (see: an entire sub-fandom dedicated to Markham/Stackhouse, who show up for a few seconds in only a few episodes, vs. very little on Grodin, Bates, or even Ford.)

Yeah... fandom_wank tends, I've found, to overplay the "oh god these people are so oversensitive!" trope, but I suppose it's the nature of the place: reasoned debate isn't all that funny. :) And I didn't notice this post was over a week old- sorry about that. *ducks*

Oh man, when I wrote this, I honestly never expected anyone to read it (not that that's an excuse or anything), and I porbably would have been a little clearer on what I meant if I knew it was eventually going to be looked at by someone other than me (I probably would have actually put links in instead of saying "some people" because is that not the *worse* argument *ever*) but since people *are reading it...

I do *get* the point of this debate. And if this debate can help the situation, I don't begrudge it happening, and by your comments I can see it already has.

I suppose the main theme of my post is that I have low expectations :P I've read some truly bad fic in the past, and SGA (at least what I've read of it) has been so much better than that, so I suppose that it shouldn't surprise me that people have discussions like this to make the fandom even better....

I do get that if you're automatically assuming that Teyla would make a *perfect* maid, there's something going on there (have you seen the show? imaginary you there). But most fics I've read don't do that, they have her in positions like boss, or co-worker, or in charge of an Athosian sub-division or similar company if it's such a fic.
I have noticed people pigeon holing characters (Hey, lets make Bob the juggling clown at the kids birthday party, it doesn't matter that he's an accountant/Doctor/Sumo wrestler/whatever on the show) and often there's no rhyme or reason to it. But! I haven't seen it nearly as much in the SGA fandom as I have in other fandoms (where it was being done to white men), and I really can't say as I've noticed it being done unequally. Which is really my argument here. I guess I'm excusing it, and really if people want to be better writers they should be aware of it, but I just find it hard to get behind an argument that says people are doing these with stereotypes in their heads, when I've seen it done far more often where stereotypes aren't really coming into play. But from perspective of being a better writer (and I'd like to point out that I'm not a writer better or otherwise :P) you're right, and I'm totally wrong.

For many of the people having this discussion, the debate is not essentially about SGA AUs, but about how fandom treats Characters of Color and Fans of Color, and we've been having this discussion for years. (http://witchqueen.livejournal.com/2385.html)

You do know that you're not speaking for all of fandom here, right?
Oh yes, I certainly know that. I'm totally surprised that my post somehow got linked to metafandom, because I know I'm a total unknown in the fandom. I basically wrote this to get some things off my mind, I left it unlocked because I hadn't thought anyone actually read my journal. *shrugs*

I would dearly love to see at least one AU where Rodney is down on his luck, and I'm willing to be that some fans would feel the same.
Oh me too, definitely. Actually I'm pretty sure I have read some. But, generally, and I could be wrong here, just going from my experience, when Rodney or John *is* down on their luck it's part of the plot line, part of the character the author is trying to present. That's what I meant when I said "People aren't going to put their OTP in a crappy position, unless it's part of the plot of their stories"

But if you need a really minor character in that fic, is it really that much trouble to try to use one who fits the role, however minor?
Now I'd just like to start off by saying, we're coming from totally different viewpoints here. If you're trying to talk about being a good writer, then absolutely you're correct. I totally agree. And maybe I'm just making excuses here, and perpetuating bad writing, but my whole argument was just that it's not really biased when writers are putting POC/women in poorly thought out positions when an even greater trend will show that a lot of writers simply never put a lot of thought into secondary character, it just so happens that in the SGA fandom the secondary characters are mostly women/people of colour.

Looking back on my argument, I do realize that it's an excuse to perpetuate bad writing, and I really don't think a writer should have to put thought into a secondary character just because they're a woman/person of colour. Because it'll make you a better writer? Makes a better story? Then yes of *course* you should put more thought into the character.

But I bet a lot of people, completely and utterly without the intent to perpetuate stereotypes, would pick Lorne. Because society tells us that if John's running in a nice middle-class neighborhood then of course his neighbor is white.
In a case like that, then I suppose you could convince me of unintentional stereotypes. But! I can't honestly think of any fics that do that. When I do see a character like Lorne show up he generally plays second fiddle to Ronon, or at the very least has the same amount of screen time. You could make the argument for Zelenka, but that's simply because he fills a position that is needed in a lot of AUs and I can't quite see Ronon filling his shoes (maybe Teyla, but you'd have to really work to put Ronon in there :P).

The thing that annoys people is when AU writers do use canon characters in a fic and they've given more thought to the Cadman character than to the Teyla character or more thought to the Lorne character than to the Ronon character.
And I *do* understand how that can be annoying. I really, really do. If I were reading it, it would probably throw me. But I'm *not* reading it. That's one of my biggest problems with this whole thing, people keep talking about problems and say it's this horrible growing trend, and I. Just. Don't. See it. I really don't have a problem with the discussion of these matters, everyone has unconscious biases, *everyone*. And I'm a firm believer in examining them (I once totally shocked my room mate when I admitted to stereotype that always pops into my head when I come across it, but I admit to it, because if I don't I won't change), if this were a discussion about these qualities within ourselves, I could get behind it, but I'm having trouble following peoples anger when I can't find these examples that they're angry about. And comments from people like

witchqueen saying things like "If a person of color says, "There are some skanky race issues here," you have to believe them." (Here) or saying that

seperis is out of line when she asked for proof of the growing trend that she didn't see. Well, maybe it gets me a bit defensive and I come out with post like this, that don't exactly better fandom, but try and show we're not quite as whatever as we're being made to look.

And I *do* realize that. As it's been pointed out to me, I was basically making an argument that perpetuates bad writing. My argument was basically that I can't *really* see this as racism/anti-feminist when I've seen this very thing done, a lot, when the secondary characters aren't people of colour/women (ok, I more said that in my first comments but it's what I *meant*).

Also the parts that I was reading at the time, people were going *crazy* and it does take away from the argument just a bit when people are going crazy. I don't often read meta, and as you can probably tell, I don't often write meta, and this is the first time I've done it "publicly" so it probably didn't come off the best. And I knew when I was writing it, I was missing the point, I even said as much.

And while I can understand (abstractly, since any stereotypes that apply to me that have appeared in fandom, I generally just pass over with an eye roll) that it would be frustrating for you, but I really can't get behind something that I'm just not seeing. In your post you basically berated

seperis for asking for proof, and said "If a person of color says, "There are some skanky race issues here," you have to believe them."

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. At all. Certainly if a person of colour came to me with concerns about my actions, I'd listen to them, and I'd give their opinions more thought than I would, someone who was white, but that doesn't mean I *have* to believe them. If it's something that's there, and I'm just missing it, well how are we going to change if examples aren't given. Asking for proof to back up a statement, isn't out of line, if I were to say "90% of statistics are made up on the spot" Well, you'd probably smile 'cause you caught the joke, but if it were a real statistic, would you just believe it because it sounds official? Even if it is "official" I don't always believe it (my grandfather always used to carry around an article that explained why smoking is good for your health. Offical? yes. True? Well...). I'm sorry but I'm a scientist, and I just can't accept things "because someone said so" I require proof.

I think if this whole discussion had simply been about characters in colour I'd have agreed wit it more. I do think that they and be/are under... used? I'm not quite sure of my wording here. I mean, that I wish fandom paid more attention to them. To be honest, if someone asked I'd say I'm a McShep shipper, but the only reason I follow that pairing is because there's *so *much* of it in the fandom. Really? I love Ronon about a million times more than John, and I wish I could find as much representation for Ronon as I do for John, but fandom just hasn't moved in that direction.

I do appreciate the underlying issues, but a lot of it has been obscured by the way it's been presented. I'm all for discussions, especially when people can keep it not-crazy like some of the earlier discussions of this topic where handled (I know there have been a lot of good ones since the initial crazy).

I'd have agreed wit it more. I do think that they and be/are under... used?
Ug, can you tell I didn't read the end over before posting? Sorry that's supposed to read "with it" and "they can be"

I should also add, about referring to some of the conversations as "crazy" I've only seen this appear on my flist 3 times, and really had stopped reading it after last weekend when people were going on about cats and

permetaform, I *know* I've missed most of the conversations about this, and that most of them weren't crazy. And we shouldn't avoid a topic just because of how a few present it, but, well, sometimes it's easy to get caught up in the drama and miss the issue.

Oh, ok. I do realize that I have a very broad definition of OTP, but I really didn't see how someone could classify that fic as anything else :P

But the point was more that it was a *trend* more than in one fic- SGA AUs in particular, but also pretty consistent cross-fandom- and that white minor characters *do* get treated differently (see: an entire sub-fandom dedicated to Markham/Stackhouse, who show up for a few seconds in only a few episodes, vs. very little on Grodin, Bates, or even Ford.)
Now that's actually a statement I can totally get behind. If someone were making the argument that there should be more fics about people of colour/women, then I'd be out there trying to advocate it. As I said to

witchqueen, I love Ronon, I like about a thousand times more than John, and I would *love* to see more fic about him. If I were a writer, you can bet your ass he'd be in pretty much all my fic, and probably not as a secondary character. Grodin too, I've read some great Lorne fics, and onces about Chuck, but Grodin was pretty cool and if there are fics about *Chuck*, who basically has his position, but a fraction of the air time, than there should be fics about Grodin.

The argument that I was making though wasn't about the lack of fics about them, it was about them as secondary characters. When they are being placed as secondary characters, I'm not really seeing them abused as others have said they have. That was also the argument as *I* saw it presented in a lot of the early discussions. I will fully admit though, that I haven't really been following this since last weekend, and even then, I'm sure I missed out on a boat load of conversations, so the topic may very well have switched in that direction, in which case, I totally agree.

I posted without reading the second half of you comment *headdesk*

Yeah... fandom_wank tends, I've found, to overplay the "oh god these people are so oversensitive!" trope, but I suppose it's the nature of the place: reasoned debate isn't all that funny.
Oh it is, one of the people they called on made a comment back at fandom wank and everyone in the comments just rolled their eyes and mocked him more for it. When they present an situation they pretty much ignore everything but the people going crazy :P

And I didn't notice this post was over a week old- sorry about that. *ducks*
No, it's ok, I'm just kind of shocked that it made it to metafandom, like how did they hear about it? No one cared when I wrote it in the first place, and people aren't acting crazy anymore, sure there are still disagreements, but people aren't defriending or screaming anymore, so the beginning of my post comes off really wrong. I actually never partake in this kind of thing, I just read what others have to say, it's safer that way (I just had someone accuse me of wanting Ronon and Teyla to be white males, *headdesk*) and I probably wouldn't have written this if I knew people would read it, but whatever, I'm already in, might as well discuss it rationally :)

In your post you basically berated seperis for asking for proof Jenn didn't ask for proof in isolation. In the context of the larger discussion, her request for proof exemplified a behavior of assuming that fans of color were making shit up (http://thete1.livejournal.com/616790.html?thread=10922838#t10922838).

In your post you … said "If a person of color says, "There are some skanky race issues here," you have to believe them."

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with that. At all. Certainly if a person of colour came to me with concerns about my actions, I'd listen to them, and I'd give their opinions more thought than I would, someone who was white, but that doesn't mean I *have* to believe them.

My post was written specifically for people who want a ghetto pass, i.e. who want to be accorded the assumption by fans of color that they have worked on their race issues, that any racist acts they commit are abberant behavior, that they welcome and support discussion of race issues, etc. I specifically said, None of the above behaviors are required in order for you to be a good person of reasonable social standing. If it's more important to you to live as a scientist than to have a ghetto pass, that's a choice you get to make and I won't condemn you for it. But if you want Fans of Color to assume that you are an ally in the fight against racism, then, yes, you have to assume we are telling the truth when we talk about skanky race issues.

If it's something that's there, and I'm just missing it, well how are we going to change if examples aren't given.

1) Examples were given in this go-round. In

lierdumoa's first reply to

omglawdork, she spelled out really explicitly what the issue she had with the story was. When liviapenn followed up, she was also extraordinarily explicit about her examples. However, people decided that a) the examples were insufficient and b) did not give any indication of what level of examples they would find convincing.

2) It is not the job of Fans of Color to educate you about race issues. There is a lot of material on the Internet about race and colonial issues, and if you live in the States (and, I believe also Canada) there are many books on the issue, quite possibly available at your local library.

3) I read one of Suzette Haden Elgin's books on the Gentle Art of Verbal Self Defense. Most of it didn't stick, but the one insight I did take away was this: if someone says a statement that does not make sense to you under the current circumstance, try to imagine the circumstances under which the statement would be true. This is probably a lot closer to the world in which lives the person with whom you are having the discussion.

I think if this whole discussion had simply been about characters in colour I'd have agreed wit it more. I do think that they and be/are under... used? I've done that (http://witchqueen.livejournal.com/2385.html) and I've done follow up work when people said they didn't know how to write Characters of Color (http://witchqueen.livejournal.com/366922.html). This is not at all the first time this discussion has come up in fandom, but it probably is the longest I've seen it sustained.

Here via

metafandom

I've been reading about all the wank in the SGA comms via metafandom.

As a person of color who is not a SGA shipper at all I do understand what you are saying about secondary characters and OTP. I happen to write and I write mostly all white characters. In fact I don't think I've written about a person of color until recently.

In fact it has never crossed my mind that I couldn't write about them because I wasn't white. I don't think I consciously even think about the underlying issues of racism when I write. I do think about voice and I realize that the type of character I'm writing would not use various popular hip hop terms that come easily to me.

I actually try to stay within canon when writing so that the characters are recognized. I will embellish a bit here and there especially in AU's but I never once thought 'I'm going to put Black/Latin/Asian/other in said position because we minorities are not represented well'.

Maybe I should.

As a person of color writing about people of color should my writing be more pro people of color?

Should I take a stand in every fic that I write? Should every fic have people of color in all powerful positions? Should every fic point out the racism in the world? In my fics should I point out the inherit racist attitudes in my characters?

What happens if I just wanna write good fic?
What happens if I just wanna write good porny fic?
What happens if I just wanna write about a world I would like to live in?
What happens if in that world I treat characters of color just like everyone else in my fic?

Do I get a pass because I'm a person of color?
Do I get to write what I want, the way I want, when I write because I'm a person of color?
Do I have to say hey I'm a person of color read my fic through these glasses for my interpretation to count?

This next part is just me commenting on racism as I experience it...

The problem with racism and talking about racism is that the experiences with racism differ from person to person and from skin color to skin color.

If you are white you can't be racist because you by default have the power. White people do not get to talk freely about racism because of this position. It is a very real fact that they may/can/will be attacked.

If the environment is not set for everyone to talk freely without censure I could see how hard it would be for any one white to talk about racism freely and openly. People of color have a lot to say about this because we are the 'wronged' party. (I have noticed in this discussion that we people of color have not opened our dirty little secret: people of color who are racist to other people of color.)

It's those times when people of color are offended and hurt that we speak out and we speak out violently and to hurt. When this happens no one learns anything. At the times I'm angry I find it really hard to tell the person who may have innocently done something why I'm angry. Imagine how hard it is to talk about racism or confront it. Responsibly.

As a person of color we are hurt, angry, and bitter, and we leave the experience thinking that that person is a racist and I feel the white person leaves the experience thinking all people of color are violent and various other not so nice things.

I find I can not afford to view every white person as racist. I would be pissed off all the damn time. I do find I always feel that my every action represents my whole race I am never judged as individual. I have no idea if its true but I do live on the basis that it is.

I think this is inherent in this particular 'thing' happening in SGA at the moment. It takes a particular sensitivity to approach this topic responsibly and I feel in the aftermath everyone is.

I feel for those who were attacked, I feel for those who were left out, I feel mostly for the readers and the writers who will A. not get as much fic and B. writers who may no longer feel able to write as they wish.

I hope the fandom as a whole will recover from this and that everyone will get back to the business of writing good fic and hopefully be just a bit more aware of the entire fandom.

My post was written specifically for people who want a ghetto pass
I'm sorry, I do realize that, it's just that statement goes against everything I believe in. Is it more important for me to be a scientist? Maybe, I've just lived parts of my life believing what people tell me to believe without questioning it, and looking back now, I wonder at how stupid I was. The way I've lived my life just does not allow me to take a statement, no matter the source, without examining *why* I'm willing to believe it, wondering *should* I believe it.

1) Examples were given in this go-round. In lierdumoa's first reply to omglawdork, she spelled out really explicitly what the issue she had with the story was. When liviapenn followed up, she was also extraordinarily explicit about her examples. However, people decided that a) the examples were insufficient and b) did not give any indication of what level of examples they would find convincing.
I think the wording of this entire debate has been holding back some of the real issues. People keep going on about a "growing trend" but when all we can find are 4-10 fics that actually fit the description, out of hundreds, probably thousands, then no, for me it's not sufficient data. Especially since to me, I don't feel that the characters are put in such positions because of their colour, consciously or not, I think it's more about good/bad writing, which is what my post is trying to convey.

This is not at all the first time this discussion has come up in fandom, but it probably is the longest I've seen it sustained.
Yeah, I read about this last weekend, and didn't see anything else really about it until yesterday (I'm mostly a lurker in the SGA fandom, there's not much on my flist, and I stopped *looking* for it). I was quite surprised to see it still being discussed, because fandom is fickle, if intense. I also do realize it's been discussed before a lot of posts have been dug up from archives, and it only makes sense that it's been discussed before, and I would *die* of *shock* if this were the last discussion on it.

And if it makes you feel better, this discussion *has* been making people think, and I think it is helping. I may not agree with the actual application in this instance, but I do understand and believe in the underlying principle.

People keep going on about a "growing trend" but when all we can find are 4-10 fics that actually fit the description, out of hundreds, probably thousands, then no, for me it's not sufficient data. Especially since to me, I don't feel that the characters are put in such positions because of their colour, consciously or not, I think it's more about good/bad writing, which is what my post is trying to convey.

One statement: this position reads to me as if you are the final arbiter of when I can claim I've been insulted. That's infuriating.

Two questions: How many instances of this repositioning would it take for you to conclude there was a trend? How many instances of an SGA member being turned into a penguin did you have to see before you believed that was a trend?

this position reads to me as if you are the final arbiter of when I can claim I've been insulted. That's infuriating.
My statement actually had nothing to do with your personal feelings, I'm sorry you took it as such. My statement actually has to do with what *I* choose to feel. What I choose to believe.
You're saying that you're infuriated when I try and claim that I have ultimate authority on a matter (and I'm sorry that I made you angry), but it's ok when you do? Sure you have ultimate authority over who *you* give these "passes" to, but it's my choice to *think* instead of just believing things, and while you're not *saying* I'm a bad person for trying to have independent thoughts, you are saying I'm someone that... I don't know, isn't worthy in some ways?

How many instances of this repositioning would it take for you to conclude there was a trend? How many instances of an SGA member being turned into a penguin did you have to see before you believed that was a trend?
To be honest? I'm not sure. I think it for me to really believe this, I'd have to see evidence myself. I will certainly consider what people are saying, and watch for this trend. But as things stand *with me* now, I haven't seen this trend, and thinking back on things that I've read, I don't even see if I've missed anything. I have stated that give me a month, and I might have completely changed my mind.

As for the penguin thing. I certainly wouldn't categorize it as a growing trend either. I can only think of maybe 3-5 fics that had it, I'd call it an instance, I'd call it an idea that people briefly latched onto. If I were to go back to reading fics and realize that every second fic, every 10, every 100th fic included it, and continued to display such tendencies, *then* I'd consider it a trend. And you know what? When I reached that conclusion, it'd be my conclusion, and mine alone. I have never professed to speak for fandom. In fact, as a massive lurker, I hardly even speak for myself. I'm not saying that you have to follow my way of thinking. My original post was an alternative look at the position of secondary characters. I wrote it mostly to put my thoughts down. I'm not going to try and convince you I'm right. I'm not going to say that your observations, or feelings are wrong, I'm simply stating that they aren't my observations. I'm also saying I'm not going to follow a trend that doesn't fit with what I'm observing, simply because it's a trend. That's why, the amount of posts about this topic lately, has me thinking, and considering, but until I personally observe it, I'm sorry, I'm not just going to believe it.

And I'm sorry if this offends you, I'm sorry if it makes you feel like I'm trying to dictate what you should be feeling, really, I'm just trying to logically approach my *own* feelings.

To throw in my lone opinion: Say an AU writer has John as a suburban single dad. Quick, who's the guy down the street that he runs with in the morning? Ronon or Lorne? Half a second's thought would lead one to Ronon since John runs with him in freakin' canon, and that would a nice, cute, easy nod to canon. But I bet a lot of people, completely and utterly without the intent to perpetuate stereotypes, would pick Lorne. Because society tells us that if John's running in a nice middle-class neighborhood then of course his neighbor is white.

I'm not going to say you're right or wrong, but there is more than one explanation for that, and I'm going to use myself as an example because I can't speak for anyone else.

If I were to write that scenario, I would pick Lorne. Not because Ronon couldn't be in a middle-class-to-upscale neighborhood, but because Lorne is a secondary character that I like, and because we don't see him enough on the show. Past all the John and Rodney stuff, the reason I write certain characters into stories is because I like them, I like the glimpses we get of them in canon. And most of the time I write Ronon out of stories entirely, because a) before Sateda, I felt Ronon was being written as boring and one-dimensional, b) I liked Ford better and will throw him in every chance I get, and more importantly, c) Ronon's hard to write.

The thing about writing Lorne or Chuck or Zelenka is that we don't have a lot of canon to reference, so we can get away with making Lorne a pastry chef or Chuck roller-skating waiter at Sonic who's working on his bachelor's degree in history. Writing them is fun, and it's the reason most people write fanfic -- because they want to see things that aren't happening on our TV screens.

People like Lorne and Cadman -- I don't see the harm in putting them in a story instead of Ronon and Teyla, because we see a lot of Ronon and Teyla in canon. And while people like them as well, and in most cases, more, it's just fun to play with things that way.

Bingo.

I write SGA fics and I've spent the last week equal parts confused, disgusted and sad by various responses.

You asked, "As a person of color writing about people of color should my writing be more pro people of color? What happens if I just wanna write good fic? What happens if I just wanna write good porny fic? What happens if I just wanna write about a world I would like to live in? What happens if in that world I treat characters of color just like everyone else in my fic?"

That was so well said!

I write to write.

I try to write engaging gen fics, and slashy fics. I push my brain to feed emotions to my readers through angst, humor, drama, action, hurt, comfort, sex, kink, etc.

I prefer to write Ronon Dex-centric stories and it has ZERO to do with his (or the actor's) racial background. I also prefer to write Dr. Carson Beckett, and I normally pair those two in my slash fics. I've done this without a second thought to race.

I write characters to fit my story. I leave characters out, or put them in "lower" roles in some stories if I don't feel comfortable with their dialog, canon characterization, or simply if I don't like them. Every writer has that right.

You said, "The problem with racism and talking about racism is that the experiences with racism differ from person to person and from skin color to skin color."

Spot on.

I'm black. My husband is white.
I'm American. He's British.
I'm Jamaican/Asian Indian/Scottish. He's English/French.

My point is racism is not a topic that can ever easily be discussed or dismissed without causing someone pain. It doesn't matter what side you're on - someone will get hurt. People can discuss it to death, but how they choose to discuss it is the point.

Seeing all the hurt and anger in the SGA fandom this past week also left me numb. Hopefully, the fandom will, for the most part, look back on it with awareness for both sides, and learn from that.

Your Welcome,

One, I one hope you continue to write as you see fit.
Two, I hope you recover from your numbness. Your numbness will only make that harder to concentrate on the issues important to you. One of which seems to be writing engaging fiction.

Three, I wanted you to know you are not alone in this and that there are other points of view. That not all People of Color react the same way and those people may not be brave enough to throw their hat into the ring and challenge other points of view but they do exist.

I believe as a people of color we need to stand together against what we perceive as racism but that does not mean blindly standing up for everything regardless of common sense. I do believe in these cases its OK to also side with the human aspect of it all.

But going off on one author who didn't know about all that stuff?

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