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Ok, I promised myself I wouldn't do this, especially since I have yet to get my ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
the_reel stuff in yet, but I kind of have to, because if I don't write it down it's going to continue bugging me, and I've already spent 2 whole days thinking of very little else.
So I'm going to talk about all the wank going on in the SGA fandom at the moment.
Note: For those coming here frommetafandom please note that this was written a week ago, when things were a bit more crazy, and less thought out. Also, I fully admit that my argument perpetuates bad writing (or at the very least doesn't encourage *good* writing).
Most people are probably tired of reading it all, and please feel free to pass on by, I'm probably missing the point anyways.
So, I can understand why, as a person of colour or as someone who is particularly aware of such things (I'm not), you’d be upset if people are constantly putting people of colour in the fics you read in lower positions. You may think that it reflects a negative idea that people hold, and really that's your right. And honestly? If you want it to stop, you have to say something, because people won't change what they don't notice.
I've read some people* saying that they're being attacked for speaking up. That it isn't right that they aren't allowed to speak up about what's hurting them because it might hurt others, why should they have to hide/live with their hurt to spare others?
And really, they're right, they don't have to, but getting pissed off, and flaming some newbie? Not helping your case. And yeah, I'm sure this whole thing will have people thinking. In some good ways, and I'm sure in some bad ways as well. It may reach a wider audience than simply leaving polite notes to individual authors would. But also? It makes you look like an asshole.
Also people keep bringing up that people don't write fics about people of colour because they're afraid to. And while I can't speak for authors (I'm not even one myself) I don't think skin colour would ever stop me from either reading a fic, or, say, making a vid about a character. In fact two of my favourite vids in the SG fandoms, that can continually move me to the point of almost tears are about Teal'c and Teyla/Ronon respectively (They sort of touch on the whole race thing, but with Teal'c the vid is more about him being an alien on the all human SG-1 team, and the Teyla/Ronon one was more about being strong).
Maybe people are avoiding writing about them because of the colour of their skin, and put them into minor roles in fic for the same reasons. But really? Honestly? I think the reason people of colour and women from the show are being put into these roles, isn't out of disrespect, it isn't because people are "afraid." And it isn't because they're racist, or think white men should have a higher place in society whether conscious or unconscious.
I think the problem lies in the fact that you're preaching mostly to McShep slash writers!
People aren't going to put their OTP in a crappy position, unless it's part of the plot of their stories, a lot of people do the opposite, putting their OTPs in grandiose positions. Often these fics are all about John and Rodney, only adding other people in where they fit. So you're writing an Earth side AU and want to include the rest of the team? Well you're going to fit them in where you can. Sure you could make Ronon Rodney's business partner, but given their characters, what the hell are they doing? You could make him a co-worker, but, well, they're only co-workers in canon due to some pretty interesting situations. If you're writing something like 'what if the stargate didn't exist' well there are already beloved canon co-workers for Rodney, so why try to jam Ronon into that position?
John fits better with Ronon and Teyla, ebcause really Rodney's kind of the odd man out on the team in many ways. I think Teyla is an easier character to put in an Earth fic, because she's a bit more rounded, and her skills are a bit more transferable, really Ronon is so often portrayed as the run totin' muscle on the show, that it's hard to picture him as, I don't know, an accountant.
And that reminds me of another point that was brought up. "If you try I don't see why you can't give Ronon a reasonable/equal job." And that's very true. I'm one of these people that's willing to be lead. If it were written well, you could totally convince me that Ronon would make an amazing accountant who does origami in his spare time. But! who honestly puts that much thought into a secondary character for an OTP fic?
I'm not going to sit down and write a chapter about Elizabeth's dark secret past, or Lorne's family history, or Zeleka's hobbies, unless it directly affects my OTP storyline. So why should I have to do so just for Ronon because he's not white (because a lot of people have mentioned that they probably wouldn't have batted an eye if he were white)?
Because honestly? I don't really think people go in thinking of Ronon or Teyla as not white. In fact I think they probably would be treated the same way if they were white. If people have trouble fitting them in AUs it's due more to the fact that on the show they're from another planet than because of the colour of their skin.
But on that note, and this may be because I have blinders on, or maybe because I'm reading the wrong (? or more likely right) fics, but I haven't seen this phenomenon. I can think of two fics, and two fics only (well off the top of my head) where Ronon and Teyla have been set apart from the others in a way that could be considered applicable to this debacle.
The first being the cat fic that has gotten so much wank, and I only thought of it because it got so much wank (which I suppose points to the blinders argument, but whatever). Which I don't actually buy. I don't agree that the author turned Ronon and Teyla into cats because they weren't white (although, I don't actually think people are saying that, just that they were taken aback that the only people of colour on the show were the ones turned, and I suppose I can understand that), but I accept the authors statement that she did so because she wanted to include the team, and it was fun. I'm sure that had it been an SG-1 Jack/Daniel fic, she wouldn't have hesitated to turn Sam into a cat.
The second one had Ronon and Teyla abused as children, but it was only mentioned to explain other-worldliness and reserved qualities since they were on earth.
Seriously though, most of the earth AUs I can think of, have Elizabeth and Teyla in high positions. Often as the boss or equal of either John or Rodney. And if they're in a lower position, than they're at a lower position with John and/or Rodney. Ronon, well I can't really think of many examples with him, but when I do he's often either John's best friend or something, or he's a body guard (kind of like on the show).
In the end, because I'm stopping now, even though I hate racism, and want to be against anything that can be perceived as racism, I really can't get behind the arguments people are making on the "you're (unconsciously) racist side because 1. I haven't seen it (I might come back in a month and change that, since I'm sure to be more aware after this, and I suppose that's kind of their whole point) so really can't get behind their frustrations, and 2. I don't really think Ronon and Teyla would be treated any different if they were white.
A lot of what sets them apart from John and Rodney is that they're aliens to us, and people have said they seem more alien to us because of their skin colour, and that may be true, but I've watched 12 1/2 seasons of Stargate, and I've seen white people be able to pull off the alien thing, so really....
I'm going to stop now, and hopefully get on with other things now. If someone really has read this, well, I'm sorry if it was ramble-y.
*I can put up links of anyone actually cares, but I'm assuming no one but myself is actually reading this, so I'm not citing anything unless asked. *shrugs*
the_reel stuff in yet, but I kind of have to, because if I don't write it down it's going to continue bugging me, and I've already spent 2 whole days thinking of very little else. So I'm going to talk about all the wank going on in the SGA fandom at the moment.
Note: For those coming here from
metafandom please note that this was written a week ago, when things were a bit more crazy, and less thought out. Also, I fully admit that my argument perpetuates bad writing (or at the very least doesn't encourage *good* writing). Most people are probably tired of reading it all, and please feel free to pass on by, I'm probably missing the point anyways.
So, I can understand why, as a person of colour or as someone who is particularly aware of such things (I'm not), you’d be upset if people are constantly putting people of colour in the fics you read in lower positions. You may think that it reflects a negative idea that people hold, and really that's your right. And honestly? If you want it to stop, you have to say something, because people won't change what they don't notice.
I've read some people* saying that they're being attacked for speaking up. That it isn't right that they aren't allowed to speak up about what's hurting them because it might hurt others, why should they have to hide/live with their hurt to spare others?
And really, they're right, they don't have to, but getting pissed off, and flaming some newbie? Not helping your case. And yeah, I'm sure this whole thing will have people thinking. In some good ways, and I'm sure in some bad ways as well. It may reach a wider audience than simply leaving polite notes to individual authors would. But also? It makes you look like an asshole.
Also people keep bringing up that people don't write fics about people of colour because they're afraid to. And while I can't speak for authors (I'm not even one myself) I don't think skin colour would ever stop me from either reading a fic, or, say, making a vid about a character. In fact two of my favourite vids in the SG fandoms, that can continually move me to the point of almost tears are about Teal'c and Teyla/Ronon respectively (They sort of touch on the whole race thing, but with Teal'c the vid is more about him being an alien on the all human SG-1 team, and the Teyla/Ronon one was more about being strong).
Maybe people are avoiding writing about them because of the colour of their skin, and put them into minor roles in fic for the same reasons. But really? Honestly? I think the reason people of colour and women from the show are being put into these roles, isn't out of disrespect, it isn't because people are "afraid." And it isn't because they're racist, or think white men should have a higher place in society whether conscious or unconscious.
I think the problem lies in the fact that you're preaching mostly to McShep slash writers!
People aren't going to put their OTP in a crappy position, unless it's part of the plot of their stories, a lot of people do the opposite, putting their OTPs in grandiose positions. Often these fics are all about John and Rodney, only adding other people in where they fit. So you're writing an Earth side AU and want to include the rest of the team? Well you're going to fit them in where you can. Sure you could make Ronon Rodney's business partner, but given their characters, what the hell are they doing? You could make him a co-worker, but, well, they're only co-workers in canon due to some pretty interesting situations. If you're writing something like 'what if the stargate didn't exist' well there are already beloved canon co-workers for Rodney, so why try to jam Ronon into that position?
John fits better with Ronon and Teyla, ebcause really Rodney's kind of the odd man out on the team in many ways. I think Teyla is an easier character to put in an Earth fic, because she's a bit more rounded, and her skills are a bit more transferable, really Ronon is so often portrayed as the run totin' muscle on the show, that it's hard to picture him as, I don't know, an accountant.
And that reminds me of another point that was brought up. "If you try I don't see why you can't give Ronon a reasonable/equal job." And that's very true. I'm one of these people that's willing to be lead. If it were written well, you could totally convince me that Ronon would make an amazing accountant who does origami in his spare time. But! who honestly puts that much thought into a secondary character for an OTP fic?
I'm not going to sit down and write a chapter about Elizabeth's dark secret past, or Lorne's family history, or Zeleka's hobbies, unless it directly affects my OTP storyline. So why should I have to do so just for Ronon because he's not white (because a lot of people have mentioned that they probably wouldn't have batted an eye if he were white)?
Because honestly? I don't really think people go in thinking of Ronon or Teyla as not white. In fact I think they probably would be treated the same way if they were white. If people have trouble fitting them in AUs it's due more to the fact that on the show they're from another planet than because of the colour of their skin.
But on that note, and this may be because I have blinders on, or maybe because I'm reading the wrong (? or more likely right) fics, but I haven't seen this phenomenon. I can think of two fics, and two fics only (well off the top of my head) where Ronon and Teyla have been set apart from the others in a way that could be considered applicable to this debacle.
The first being the cat fic that has gotten so much wank, and I only thought of it because it got so much wank (which I suppose points to the blinders argument, but whatever). Which I don't actually buy. I don't agree that the author turned Ronon and Teyla into cats because they weren't white (although, I don't actually think people are saying that, just that they were taken aback that the only people of colour on the show were the ones turned, and I suppose I can understand that), but I accept the authors statement that she did so because she wanted to include the team, and it was fun. I'm sure that had it been an SG-1 Jack/Daniel fic, she wouldn't have hesitated to turn Sam into a cat.
The second one had Ronon and Teyla abused as children, but it was only mentioned to explain other-worldliness and reserved qualities since they were on earth.
Seriously though, most of the earth AUs I can think of, have Elizabeth and Teyla in high positions. Often as the boss or equal of either John or Rodney. And if they're in a lower position, than they're at a lower position with John and/or Rodney. Ronon, well I can't really think of many examples with him, but when I do he's often either John's best friend or something, or he's a body guard (kind of like on the show).
In the end, because I'm stopping now, even though I hate racism, and want to be against anything that can be perceived as racism, I really can't get behind the arguments people are making on the "you're (unconsciously) racist side because 1. I haven't seen it (I might come back in a month and change that, since I'm sure to be more aware after this, and I suppose that's kind of their whole point) so really can't get behind their frustrations, and 2. I don't really think Ronon and Teyla would be treated any different if they were white.
A lot of what sets them apart from John and Rodney is that they're aliens to us, and people have said they seem more alien to us because of their skin colour, and that may be true, but I've watched 12 1/2 seasons of Stargate, and I've seen white people be able to pull off the alien thing, so really....
I'm going to stop now, and hopefully get on with other things now. If someone really has read this, well, I'm sorry if it was ramble-y.
*I can put up links of anyone actually cares, but I'm assuming no one but myself is actually reading this, so I'm not citing anything unless asked. *shrugs*
no subject
I've been reading about all the wank in the SGA comms via metafandom.
As a person of color who is not a SGA shipper at all I do understand what you are saying about secondary characters and OTP. I happen to write and I write mostly all white characters. In fact I don't think I've written about a person of color until recently.
In fact it has never crossed my mind that I couldn't write about them because I wasn't white. I don't think I consciously even think about the underlying issues of racism when I write. I do think about voice and I realize that the type of character I'm writing would not use various popular hip hop terms that come easily to me.
I actually try to stay within canon when writing so that the characters are recognized. I will embellish a bit here and there especially in AU's but I never once thought 'I'm going to put Black/Latin/Asian/other in said position because we minorities are not represented well'.
Maybe I should.
As a person of color writing about people of color should my writing be more pro people of color?
Should I take a stand in every fic that I write? Should every fic have people of color in all powerful positions? Should every fic point out the racism in the world? In my fics should I point out the inherit racist attitudes in my characters?
What happens if I just wanna write good fic?
What happens if I just wanna write good porny fic?
What happens if I just wanna write about a world I would like to live in?
What happens if in that world I treat characters of color just like everyone else in my fic?
Do I get a pass because I'm a person of color?
Do I get to write what I want, the way I want, when I write because I'm a person of color?
Do I have to say hey I'm a person of color read my fic through these glasses for my interpretation to count?
This next part is just me commenting on racism as I experience it...
The problem with racism and talking about racism is that the experiences with racism differ from person to person and from skin color to skin color.
If you are white you can't be racist because you by default have the power. White people do not get to talk freely about racism because of this position. It is a very real fact that they may/can/will be attacked.
If the environment is not set for everyone to talk freely without censure I could see how hard it would be for any one white to talk about racism freely and openly. People of color have a lot to say about this because we are the 'wronged' party. (I have noticed in this discussion that we people of color have not opened our dirty little secret: people of color who are racist to other people of color.)
It's those times when people of color are offended and hurt that we speak out and we speak out violently and to hurt. When this happens no one learns anything. At the times I'm angry I find it really hard to tell the person who may have innocently done something why I'm angry. Imagine how hard it is to talk about racism or confront it. Responsibly.
As a person of color we are hurt, angry, and bitter, and we leave the experience thinking that that person is a racist and I feel the white person leaves the experience thinking all people of color are violent and various other not so nice things.
I find I can not afford to view every white person as racist. I would be pissed off all the damn time. I do find I always feel that my every action represents my whole race I am never judged as individual. I have no idea if its true but I do live on the basis that it is.
I think this is inherent in this particular 'thing' happening in SGA at the moment. It takes a particular sensitivity to approach this topic responsibly and I feel in the aftermath everyone is.
I feel for those who were attacked, I feel for those who were left out, I feel mostly for the readers and the writers who will A. not get as much fic and B. writers who may no longer feel able to write as they wish.
I hope the fandom as a whole will recover from this and that everyone will get back to the business of writing good fic and hopefully be just a bit more aware of the entire fandom.
Thank you, Tyrical.
I write SGA fics and I've spent the last week equal parts confused, disgusted and sad by various responses.
You asked, "As a person of color writing about people of color should my writing be more pro people of color? What happens if I just wanna write good fic? What happens if I just wanna write good porny fic? What happens if I just wanna write about a world I would like to live in? What happens if in that world I treat characters of color just like everyone else in my fic?"
That was so well said!
I write to write.
I try to write engaging gen fics, and slashy fics. I push my brain to feed emotions to my readers through angst, humor, drama, action, hurt, comfort, sex, kink, etc.
I prefer to write Ronon Dex-centric stories and it has ZERO to do with his (or the actor's) racial background. I also prefer to write Dr. Carson Beckett, and I normally pair those two in my slash fics. I've done this without a second thought to race.
I write characters to fit my story. I leave characters out, or put them in "lower" roles in some stories if I don't feel comfortable with their dialog, canon characterization, or simply if I don't like them. Every writer has that right.
You said, "The problem with racism and talking about racism is that the experiences with racism differ from person to person and from skin color to skin color."
Spot on.
I'm black. My husband is white.
I'm American. He's British.
I'm Jamaican/Asian Indian/Scottish. He's English/French.
My point is racism is not a topic that can ever easily be discussed or dismissed without causing someone pain. It doesn't matter what side you're on - someone will get hurt. People can discuss it to death, but how they choose to discuss it is the point.
Seeing all the hurt and anger in the SGA fandom this past week also left me numb. Hopefully, the fandom will, for the most part, look back on it with awareness for both sides, and learn from that.
Re: Thank you, Tyrical.
One, I one hope you continue to write as you see fit.
Two, I hope you recover from your numbness. Your numbness will only make that harder to concentrate on the issues important to you. One of which seems to be writing engaging fiction.
Three, I wanted you to know you are not alone in this and that there are other points of view. That not all People of Color react the same way and those people may not be brave enough to throw their hat into the ring and challenge other points of view but they do exist.
I believe as a people of color we need to stand together against what we perceive as racism but that does not mean blindly standing up for everything regardless of common sense. I do believe in these cases its OK to also side with the human aspect of it all.
Late Response Part 1
In fact it has never crossed my mind that I couldn't write about them because I wasn't white. I don't think I consciously even think about the underlying issues of racism when I write. I do think about voice and I realize that the type of character I'm writing would not use various popular hip hop terms that come easily to me.
*If* I were a writer (sadly even *I* wouldn't want to read anything I would write I suck so bad), it wouldn't occur to me that I couldn't write a character either. Especially in the context of this fandom. Both Teyla and Ronon are from other planets whose culture has given no indication that the colour of their skin had any significance. There's been no canon of the Earthlings giving them problems, so in my head, I don't think I'd even consider racism when writing them. I'd be focusing more on the fact that they're from another planet and the implications that has for writing their character.
If you actually had to have personal experience in something before writing it, well, I think there'd be a hell of a lot less slash, since how many slash writers are actually gay men? (Also, how many of us have traveled to other planets in the case of Stargate :P)
Should I take a stand in every fic that I write? Should every fic have people of color in all powerful positions? Should every fic point out the racism in the world? In my fics should I point out the inherit racist attitudes in my characters?
Again I totally agree. Someone could go out and write these fics, and if they did it well enough, I'd probably go read them, but the truth is? I'm in fandom because it's fun. I like reading about my characters playing with ray guns, or having kinky sex. I like reading about alien machines that turn them into bunny rabbits. I like reading about things that have nothing to do with my life, things that are fun, and fluffy. I don't avoid fics that have Deeper Meaning, but I can honestly say that I've only ever read one that made me fall in love with it. Call me a flaky person, I'm ok with that when it comes to fics.
I used to be in a fandom that had a lot of political fics, and very few people were actually able to pull it off. Your ideals shine through, and the bad guys might as well be twirling their mustache. People make things look clear cut, there's good and there's evil, and while things *should* be clear cut, it often isn't. Making the racist person look ignorant/clueless or over the top... well it's not going to really send out the message. Because then the reader can smugly go "That's not me! Stupid KKK people" or whatever. They can't relate, so they won't change.
It's those times when people of color are offended and hurt that we speak out and we speak out violently and to hurt. When this happens no one learns anything. At the times I'm angry I find it really hard to tell the person who may have innocently done something why I'm angry. Imagine how hard it is to talk about racism or confront it. Responsibly.
Even thought I said at the beginning of my post some people were acting like assholes (and I mean on *both* sides) I do think that people are learning, of course it's the calm people that everyone's listening to.
In my original post, I offered a different reason as to why some authors write the way they do, because I know that if I ever did something like that, I really, honestly think that race would have nothing to do with my original action. I didn't mean to say (and I can see in retrospect that I wasn't very successful) that people shouldn't change, that because their intent wasn't malicious that it means people can't still be hurt by it.
Re: Late Response Part 1
I agree. I usually immerse myself in the fic part of the fandom every so often I'll post up a pic or a link of let a comm know about an interview happening. If I happen to catch it. I find fanfic an extension of the series I really like with a twist. I love AU's for that reason. I get to see my fave characters in places the show would never go!
OK Flaky! :)
The thing about exposing racism or writing about it is that its so subjective. Something that can seem totally innocent to you could be like a 5-alarm fire to someone else.
Then a very subjective decision of whether the person is just ignorant or are they being racist has to be made.
Now who is the person who can determine that? Will it be me? Will it be a coalition of people? Is there a clear cut standard of what is and what is not racism? Racism is the subjective equivalent of offensive. You can be offensive and racist at the same time. You could be one or the other. Again how would you know? Especially at the time of your writing, when the only influence of what you writing is your own imagination.
In most cases a decision has to be on an individual basis. With the onus of responsibility on the person who pointed it out to say why and the onus of the person on the receiving end to try to understand what that person is saying and why? If there is no willing commitment on both sides then the discussion is lost before it's even begun.
I can see how my statement could be interpreted as my thinking you didn't want people to change. I didn't get that from what you were saying. I did think that you were responding to the fact that even though its not a person's intent to harm it could still happen. My response was addressing those who are hurt. They too have a responsibility to understand or take in the possibility that person may have not meant any harm even though they may have done so.
I repeat as earlier if I attack you how am I to expect that you may actually listen to me. EVEN if I have valid points!
Re: Late Response Part 1
Ah RL, why must you get in the way of fandom? :P
The thing about exposing racism or writing about it is that its so subjective. Something that can seem totally innocent to you could be like a 5-alarm fire to someone else.
I do realize that, more after all these conversations than before. I know that a few of the fics I've read since this whole topic came up have pinged a bit for me. Things that I would have just passed off as careless writing, I'm now seeing how it could offend some people. I'm just quick to assume that the author meant no harm, or look at reasons *why* the author did that, but that's just the type of person I am.
Especially at the time of your writing, when the only influence of what you writing is your own imagination
Very true. I don't think author's always stop to think about the background of their audience. I mean the internet is so anonymous. I mean there are so many nationalities, so many ages, and yes, so many colours. I mean I was once squeeing over the hot guys on our show with someone who turned out to be older than my grandmother. How can you anticipate all the different reactions?
can see how my statement could be interpreted as my thinking you didn't want people to change. I didn't get that from what you were saying. I did think that you were responding to the fact that even though its not a person's intent to harm it could still happen.
Oh good, I'm glad someone got it. My thoughts while writing this probably weren't that clear, but that really was my underlying intention when writing this.
I repeat as earlier if I attack you how am I to expect that you may actually listen to me. EVEN if I have valid points!
No, I didn't actually think you were attacking me. You made a really well thought out post, that gave voice to a lot of things I was trying to come up with on my own, but was too wrapped up to come out right. I kind of got into the habit of throwing disclaimers in everywhere, hence my aside above, it wasn't so much aimed at you specifically, but was a reaction to things that have been said to me in general. So no worries on your part (at least coming from me :P)
Late Response Part 2
Yeah, that I can understand. I think at this point, everyone realizes I'm white (I never tried to hide that) but I have spent some of my life living as a visible minority. And I would have friends that spent a lot of time being angry or annoyed because they would assume that everything being done to us was because we looked different, and was being done in a malicious way. And there were times when I wanted to smack them in the head (and ok, wanted to smack *myself* once I got my foot out of my mouth or whatever) for acting in certain ways, thinking "This is *why* we're treated differently! This is why we have a bad name!" It's not a fun way to live. I'm lucky enough that it was temporary, and it was a choice I made, I could end it anytime I wanted to, I also wasn't really treated badly (sometimes I was, sometimes I was treated better than others, most of the time I was just treated differently). I couldn't imagine living like that all the time, though.
I know that I *try* not to base an entire people on a few examples. But I also know that some people do. Not the good examples, and especially not the bad ones. It's sad that it happens though, especially when you have to live the consequences of other people's actions, and/or other people's biases.
I feel for those who were attacked, I feel for those who were left out, I feel mostly for the readers and the writers who will A. not get as much fic and B. writers who may no longer feel able to write as they wish.
Me too. I'm especially sad when I hear people saying "I don't feel comfortable writing characters of colour anymore" because Ronon is honestly one of my favourite characters on the show (next to McKay) and he hardly gets any fics as it. (*sigh* I *really* wish I were a writer :( ) And the SGA fandom is already kind of focused, I would hate to think that diversity will go down even more because of this.
I hope the fandom as a whole will recover from this and that everyone will get back to the business of writing good fic and hopefully be just a bit more aware of the entire fandom.
Luckily I think that will happen. :)
Re: Late Response Part 2
I'm glad you think so.