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Ok, I promised myself I wouldn't do this, especially since I have yet to get my ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-community.gif)
the_reel stuff in yet, but I kind of have to, because if I don't write it down it's going to continue bugging me, and I've already spent 2 whole days thinking of very little else.
So I'm going to talk about all the wank going on in the SGA fandom at the moment.
Note: For those coming here frommetafandom please note that this was written a week ago, when things were a bit more crazy, and less thought out. Also, I fully admit that my argument perpetuates bad writing (or at the very least doesn't encourage *good* writing).
Most people are probably tired of reading it all, and please feel free to pass on by, I'm probably missing the point anyways.
So, I can understand why, as a person of colour or as someone who is particularly aware of such things (I'm not), you’d be upset if people are constantly putting people of colour in the fics you read in lower positions. You may think that it reflects a negative idea that people hold, and really that's your right. And honestly? If you want it to stop, you have to say something, because people won't change what they don't notice.
I've read some people* saying that they're being attacked for speaking up. That it isn't right that they aren't allowed to speak up about what's hurting them because it might hurt others, why should they have to hide/live with their hurt to spare others?
And really, they're right, they don't have to, but getting pissed off, and flaming some newbie? Not helping your case. And yeah, I'm sure this whole thing will have people thinking. In some good ways, and I'm sure in some bad ways as well. It may reach a wider audience than simply leaving polite notes to individual authors would. But also? It makes you look like an asshole.
Also people keep bringing up that people don't write fics about people of colour because they're afraid to. And while I can't speak for authors (I'm not even one myself) I don't think skin colour would ever stop me from either reading a fic, or, say, making a vid about a character. In fact two of my favourite vids in the SG fandoms, that can continually move me to the point of almost tears are about Teal'c and Teyla/Ronon respectively (They sort of touch on the whole race thing, but with Teal'c the vid is more about him being an alien on the all human SG-1 team, and the Teyla/Ronon one was more about being strong).
Maybe people are avoiding writing about them because of the colour of their skin, and put them into minor roles in fic for the same reasons. But really? Honestly? I think the reason people of colour and women from the show are being put into these roles, isn't out of disrespect, it isn't because people are "afraid." And it isn't because they're racist, or think white men should have a higher place in society whether conscious or unconscious.
I think the problem lies in the fact that you're preaching mostly to McShep slash writers!
People aren't going to put their OTP in a crappy position, unless it's part of the plot of their stories, a lot of people do the opposite, putting their OTPs in grandiose positions. Often these fics are all about John and Rodney, only adding other people in where they fit. So you're writing an Earth side AU and want to include the rest of the team? Well you're going to fit them in where you can. Sure you could make Ronon Rodney's business partner, but given their characters, what the hell are they doing? You could make him a co-worker, but, well, they're only co-workers in canon due to some pretty interesting situations. If you're writing something like 'what if the stargate didn't exist' well there are already beloved canon co-workers for Rodney, so why try to jam Ronon into that position?
John fits better with Ronon and Teyla, ebcause really Rodney's kind of the odd man out on the team in many ways. I think Teyla is an easier character to put in an Earth fic, because she's a bit more rounded, and her skills are a bit more transferable, really Ronon is so often portrayed as the run totin' muscle on the show, that it's hard to picture him as, I don't know, an accountant.
And that reminds me of another point that was brought up. "If you try I don't see why you can't give Ronon a reasonable/equal job." And that's very true. I'm one of these people that's willing to be lead. If it were written well, you could totally convince me that Ronon would make an amazing accountant who does origami in his spare time. But! who honestly puts that much thought into a secondary character for an OTP fic?
I'm not going to sit down and write a chapter about Elizabeth's dark secret past, or Lorne's family history, or Zeleka's hobbies, unless it directly affects my OTP storyline. So why should I have to do so just for Ronon because he's not white (because a lot of people have mentioned that they probably wouldn't have batted an eye if he were white)?
Because honestly? I don't really think people go in thinking of Ronon or Teyla as not white. In fact I think they probably would be treated the same way if they were white. If people have trouble fitting them in AUs it's due more to the fact that on the show they're from another planet than because of the colour of their skin.
But on that note, and this may be because I have blinders on, or maybe because I'm reading the wrong (? or more likely right) fics, but I haven't seen this phenomenon. I can think of two fics, and two fics only (well off the top of my head) where Ronon and Teyla have been set apart from the others in a way that could be considered applicable to this debacle.
The first being the cat fic that has gotten so much wank, and I only thought of it because it got so much wank (which I suppose points to the blinders argument, but whatever). Which I don't actually buy. I don't agree that the author turned Ronon and Teyla into cats because they weren't white (although, I don't actually think people are saying that, just that they were taken aback that the only people of colour on the show were the ones turned, and I suppose I can understand that), but I accept the authors statement that she did so because she wanted to include the team, and it was fun. I'm sure that had it been an SG-1 Jack/Daniel fic, she wouldn't have hesitated to turn Sam into a cat.
The second one had Ronon and Teyla abused as children, but it was only mentioned to explain other-worldliness and reserved qualities since they were on earth.
Seriously though, most of the earth AUs I can think of, have Elizabeth and Teyla in high positions. Often as the boss or equal of either John or Rodney. And if they're in a lower position, than they're at a lower position with John and/or Rodney. Ronon, well I can't really think of many examples with him, but when I do he's often either John's best friend or something, or he's a body guard (kind of like on the show).
In the end, because I'm stopping now, even though I hate racism, and want to be against anything that can be perceived as racism, I really can't get behind the arguments people are making on the "you're (unconsciously) racist side because 1. I haven't seen it (I might come back in a month and change that, since I'm sure to be more aware after this, and I suppose that's kind of their whole point) so really can't get behind their frustrations, and 2. I don't really think Ronon and Teyla would be treated any different if they were white.
A lot of what sets them apart from John and Rodney is that they're aliens to us, and people have said they seem more alien to us because of their skin colour, and that may be true, but I've watched 12 1/2 seasons of Stargate, and I've seen white people be able to pull off the alien thing, so really....
I'm going to stop now, and hopefully get on with other things now. If someone really has read this, well, I'm sorry if it was ramble-y.
*I can put up links of anyone actually cares, but I'm assuming no one but myself is actually reading this, so I'm not citing anything unless asked. *shrugs*
the_reel stuff in yet, but I kind of have to, because if I don't write it down it's going to continue bugging me, and I've already spent 2 whole days thinking of very little else. So I'm going to talk about all the wank going on in the SGA fandom at the moment.
Note: For those coming here from
metafandom please note that this was written a week ago, when things were a bit more crazy, and less thought out. Also, I fully admit that my argument perpetuates bad writing (or at the very least doesn't encourage *good* writing). Most people are probably tired of reading it all, and please feel free to pass on by, I'm probably missing the point anyways.
So, I can understand why, as a person of colour or as someone who is particularly aware of such things (I'm not), you’d be upset if people are constantly putting people of colour in the fics you read in lower positions. You may think that it reflects a negative idea that people hold, and really that's your right. And honestly? If you want it to stop, you have to say something, because people won't change what they don't notice.
I've read some people* saying that they're being attacked for speaking up. That it isn't right that they aren't allowed to speak up about what's hurting them because it might hurt others, why should they have to hide/live with their hurt to spare others?
And really, they're right, they don't have to, but getting pissed off, and flaming some newbie? Not helping your case. And yeah, I'm sure this whole thing will have people thinking. In some good ways, and I'm sure in some bad ways as well. It may reach a wider audience than simply leaving polite notes to individual authors would. But also? It makes you look like an asshole.
Also people keep bringing up that people don't write fics about people of colour because they're afraid to. And while I can't speak for authors (I'm not even one myself) I don't think skin colour would ever stop me from either reading a fic, or, say, making a vid about a character. In fact two of my favourite vids in the SG fandoms, that can continually move me to the point of almost tears are about Teal'c and Teyla/Ronon respectively (They sort of touch on the whole race thing, but with Teal'c the vid is more about him being an alien on the all human SG-1 team, and the Teyla/Ronon one was more about being strong).
Maybe people are avoiding writing about them because of the colour of their skin, and put them into minor roles in fic for the same reasons. But really? Honestly? I think the reason people of colour and women from the show are being put into these roles, isn't out of disrespect, it isn't because people are "afraid." And it isn't because they're racist, or think white men should have a higher place in society whether conscious or unconscious.
I think the problem lies in the fact that you're preaching mostly to McShep slash writers!
People aren't going to put their OTP in a crappy position, unless it's part of the plot of their stories, a lot of people do the opposite, putting their OTPs in grandiose positions. Often these fics are all about John and Rodney, only adding other people in where they fit. So you're writing an Earth side AU and want to include the rest of the team? Well you're going to fit them in where you can. Sure you could make Ronon Rodney's business partner, but given their characters, what the hell are they doing? You could make him a co-worker, but, well, they're only co-workers in canon due to some pretty interesting situations. If you're writing something like 'what if the stargate didn't exist' well there are already beloved canon co-workers for Rodney, so why try to jam Ronon into that position?
John fits better with Ronon and Teyla, ebcause really Rodney's kind of the odd man out on the team in many ways. I think Teyla is an easier character to put in an Earth fic, because she's a bit more rounded, and her skills are a bit more transferable, really Ronon is so often portrayed as the run totin' muscle on the show, that it's hard to picture him as, I don't know, an accountant.
And that reminds me of another point that was brought up. "If you try I don't see why you can't give Ronon a reasonable/equal job." And that's very true. I'm one of these people that's willing to be lead. If it were written well, you could totally convince me that Ronon would make an amazing accountant who does origami in his spare time. But! who honestly puts that much thought into a secondary character for an OTP fic?
I'm not going to sit down and write a chapter about Elizabeth's dark secret past, or Lorne's family history, or Zeleka's hobbies, unless it directly affects my OTP storyline. So why should I have to do so just for Ronon because he's not white (because a lot of people have mentioned that they probably wouldn't have batted an eye if he were white)?
Because honestly? I don't really think people go in thinking of Ronon or Teyla as not white. In fact I think they probably would be treated the same way if they were white. If people have trouble fitting them in AUs it's due more to the fact that on the show they're from another planet than because of the colour of their skin.
But on that note, and this may be because I have blinders on, or maybe because I'm reading the wrong (? or more likely right) fics, but I haven't seen this phenomenon. I can think of two fics, and two fics only (well off the top of my head) where Ronon and Teyla have been set apart from the others in a way that could be considered applicable to this debacle.
The first being the cat fic that has gotten so much wank, and I only thought of it because it got so much wank (which I suppose points to the blinders argument, but whatever). Which I don't actually buy. I don't agree that the author turned Ronon and Teyla into cats because they weren't white (although, I don't actually think people are saying that, just that they were taken aback that the only people of colour on the show were the ones turned, and I suppose I can understand that), but I accept the authors statement that she did so because she wanted to include the team, and it was fun. I'm sure that had it been an SG-1 Jack/Daniel fic, she wouldn't have hesitated to turn Sam into a cat.
The second one had Ronon and Teyla abused as children, but it was only mentioned to explain other-worldliness and reserved qualities since they were on earth.
Seriously though, most of the earth AUs I can think of, have Elizabeth and Teyla in high positions. Often as the boss or equal of either John or Rodney. And if they're in a lower position, than they're at a lower position with John and/or Rodney. Ronon, well I can't really think of many examples with him, but when I do he's often either John's best friend or something, or he's a body guard (kind of like on the show).
In the end, because I'm stopping now, even though I hate racism, and want to be against anything that can be perceived as racism, I really can't get behind the arguments people are making on the "you're (unconsciously) racist side because 1. I haven't seen it (I might come back in a month and change that, since I'm sure to be more aware after this, and I suppose that's kind of their whole point) so really can't get behind their frustrations, and 2. I don't really think Ronon and Teyla would be treated any different if they were white.
A lot of what sets them apart from John and Rodney is that they're aliens to us, and people have said they seem more alien to us because of their skin colour, and that may be true, but I've watched 12 1/2 seasons of Stargate, and I've seen white people be able to pull off the alien thing, so really....
I'm going to stop now, and hopefully get on with other things now. If someone really has read this, well, I'm sorry if it was ramble-y.
*I can put up links of anyone actually cares, but I'm assuming no one but myself is actually reading this, so I'm not citing anything unless asked. *shrugs*
Re: here via metafandom
Re: here via metafandom
I'm really sorry to hear that. I may have been the only person to publicly say so, but I don't think I'm the only one to think so.
I think there were a lot of people surprised by this. I don't really think that anyone thinks this shouldn't *stop* if it's happening, so they gladly join in the conversation, but on the other hand, I don't know how many people have found this a problem before it was brought up.
Now I'll be the first to admit, that I haven't been reading everything on this. But when I was, I noticed that you were one of the only people... not going against the idea behind this, but questioning the evidence. I've read people attacking you, or missing your point, and it made me roll my eyes, but I'll admit, I'm a lurker, and kind of cowardly, so I didn't speak up. I think a lot of people have been wanting examples. But they're afraid to ask, because then they are accused of saying "people of colour are making shit up" when they really just want to *know*.
I know when I wrote this post originally, I wrote it to get my thoughts out (I never imagined that anyone would read it, very few people read my LJ, and even fewer people read my LJ and are in the SGA fandom), because it *bothered* me. The thought of this happening bothered me. Not just on behalf of people of colour, but because if I were able to write, and wrote an AU, I would probably just stick characters in where ever (which is probably why I'm a crappy writer, amoung other things). If I were to write a fic that was offending people, 1)I'd be horrified, and 2)it wouldn't have been intentional.
Would I have written Lorne as John's suburban neighbour instead or Ronon because I felt (even unconsciously) that Ronon didn't belong because of the colour of his skin? No. There may have been any number of reasons, but I live in a suburban neighbourhood. And while yes, it's mostly white, the people of colour who *do* live there, don't stand out (to me). No one (that I know of) questions their right to be there.
I'm not trying to say that people can't be hurt when it happens, even if race didn't motivate the action it's still annoying or hurtful to see it happen, I guess that didn't come off very well in my original post. And you may not agree with it, and that's fine, but I do think it's sad that people feel they can't question things when they contradict their personal observations.
Re: here via metafandom
Thanks. But I kind of think you are. *g* I don't subscribe to the lurkers support me in email theory (though I'm sure it's happened to other people), and honestly, I don't expect them to. There are way too many ways for all remarks, comments, and entries to be interpreted and each come with a personal life experience behind them that can be radically different from actual meaning. Short version--I do believe most people believed I was trolling and trying to prevent discussion, and I do believe that, protestations aside, they still do. I don't think anything I can say will ever change that, since it's blazoned across an lj entry for anyone to see.
Besides me, now.
I liked your post. I don't--the thing is, at this point? I lost any desire to find out. Just gone. At first, it was interesting and worrying, something I wanted to look for, root out, find out where it was coming from, if there was a specific pattern (aka Regency AUs or Earthside AUs or Pegasus AUs, when they were written, where), the stuff that makes it easy to see patterns. Someone had seen a problem, so logically, investigate. Did I do that? Was I unconsciously reading and reccing things that had racist tendencies? Was this something I needed to work on or examine? Or conversely, being able to disagree, without the immediate backlash. This discussion didn't allow that openness. If I say randomly in my lj that John gets treated badly in x fic, I'm almost guaranteed to get a few people to tell me how incredibly wrong I am. If I say randomly, I hate the way that fanfic glorifies slavery, same thing will happen. All of these subjects are debatable, and the nature of discussion allows the debate. They have the freedom to tell me they don't see it, and I have the freedom to say, x, y, z fics bothered me. they can say that's not a pattern. I can say I've seen more, give me a bit, and I'll show you what I mean. I can choose not to say, you are a clueless person, I have said this, and it's your responsibility to prove me wrong. I just don't, usually. But there's always a baselines start of this is how I feel, and what I see, and I want to show it to you. I wouldn't bother bringing it up if I didn't want everyone to notice.
The messaege, due to fandom, will get garbled. There will be teh feelings of being personally attacked, or fic personally attacked. Those are normal. And pretty much everyone gets over it with the next great discussion topic. Thank God, or fandom would be even more grudge filled than it is today. In this place, in this topic, the margin of error isn't allowed to exist, though. There isn't a grey spot of agreement but with codicils. It's turned into a literal you must believe because it was stated so, or you are stupid, a for or against. And while I personally sometimes have that reaction to people in private, I try to keep that out of the public discourse, because it basically becomes this--a lot of frustrated, angry people who won't talk in public, period, because they have no idea how to work in this particular argument framework that does not allow for debate.
Short version--above and beyond you had a thoughtful post on the subject and I do appreciate the opportunity to have read it--though for the life of me, I do not know who linked me over here. So thank you.
Re: here via metafandom
Well I don't think I'd want to use it as an *argument*, 'cause yeah, kind of a crappy argument, but for my own sanity? I think I'd have to. I mean otherwise, I'd probably leave fandom and never want to come back. I have friends here, and I'd like to think that they know me enough to know that wouldn't be my intention. I hope it's the same with you.
There are way too many ways for all remarks, comments, and entries to be interpreted and each come with a personal life experience behind them that can be radically different from actual meaning.
*God* isn't that the truth. Actually I'm so talented *sarcasm* that half the time I don't *need* the internet to put my foot in my mouth :P
I liked your post. I don't--the thing is, at this point? I lost any desire to find out.
Me too. It took a lot of effort on my part to reply to comments after my weekend away, and finally I decided to not reply to
It's turned into a literal you must believe because it was stated so, or you are stupid, a for or against.
Yes, I truly hate that if you say anything that isn't *nods* you're racist, or dismissing the point. I mean, this post itself... I read the original posts and was surprised because I didn't see this pattern at all. So I stopped to think about it, and reached the conclusion that if it *is* happening, maybe I was missing it because I assumed that it had to do with secondary characters instead of race. I *have* seen secondary characters put into such positions, and in fandoms where the characters are white males.
I never *meant* to be dismissive of the topic, I just chose to look at it from a different angel. I also never meant to imply that people can't still be hurt by these actions.
But this topic can be so all consuming that it's not open to other topics. Like after the original fic posting and discussions that followed, there were quite a few people hurt over some of the classist remarks made. But they weren't allowed to say as much, because then they're being dismissive of the argument? Why is their hurt any less important?
Short version--above and beyond you had a thoughtful post on the subject and I do appreciate the opportunity to have read it--though for the life of me, I do not know who linked me over here. So thank you.
I'm glad you thought so. I've never done meta before, and I probably should have put more thought into the OP, but I'm glad that some people were able to read it, and walk away with something other than burning hate.
As for linking? I know the post was linked on both
Also, somewhat off topic, I hope you don't mind but I've friended you. You were one of the first author's I read in the SGA fandom, and I love your fic, but I had never seen your LJ before, and I'm really interested in your recs. No pressure to friend back or anything. :)
Re: here via metafandom
From what I read everybody seems to be assuming, and ranting. You're one of the few I've heard honestly ask, "Show me these trends". Nothing is more distressing for me then seeing people just blindly accepting what other people say. I can honestly say that in all my reading I have never seen an obvious trend. The only thing I've seen is people playing favorites with the characters they like the most. Nothing in the SGA fandom has struck me as being any different then any other fandom. There are always characters that have barely any screen time that some people will just latch on too and love and from what I've seen it doesn't have anything to do with skin color.
If anything I've been distressed at how hateful people have been over this whole thing. All I've heard is people saying that they don't agree that the SGA fandom has racist (unconscious or not) writers. And they have been in turned attacked (brutally in some cases) for simply disagreeing with that statement. Nobody is supporting racism here, we just don't want to be mindless drones and believe purely because someone says something. If the racist charge was true, it should be easy to provide fic after fic proving their point. Where are these fics, I'd like to know?
So I have to say. Way to go, seperis. For proving there are still people out there who won't be pressed into believing something just because somebody said it.
Frankly, I pretty sure that's how racism started. When some people decided that people with different colored skin weren't as important as people with white skin and others believed them.
Good change happens when people ask for proof, and question things. So thanks, for proving to me that not everybody will allow themselves to be bullied or pressured without justifiable evidence.