paraka | Question

Question

So, I've spent most of the day reading up on what people are saying about the OTW are saying. Mostly from non-fandom people, and it's kind of making me want to shoot things, but I was wondering:

What do you think about the OTW? Would you like an archive? A written fannish history? A wiki (OMG, I can't tell you how much I'd like a wiki for fandom, although I can see it being vandalized a lot)? Do you think it's a good idea to have a legal defense fund? If the OTW were ever to go to court, would you support them?

I'm planning on making a post sometime about how I feel about it, but I'm really curious as to what other people on my flist think about it. I think so far only one person on my flist has really written about it, but I spent a couple months away so could have totally missed something.

Also, I am having a bitch of a time working on a mysql database, any one know enough about setting up eFiction to want to help?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

No help on eFiction, I'm afraid! But my thoughts on OTW, I can show you them!

I've said this around a little bit - mostly, I'm ambivalent about OTW. I understand the reasoning behind the project, and I definitely understand the argument about women's work being undervalued, and exploited, and the way that an OTW archive is a counter to to such potential exploitation. I appreciate their recognition of fandom diversity and the 'community' nature of much of fandom; I also appreciate their apparent transparency.

However, I am uninterested in fandom and academia, and I don't feel the need to access a central archive at the moment. This might change - as I said, I'm ambivalent, and I would prefer to see how things unfold over time.

With regards to the legal defense fund - I don't know. Part of this, I feel, is about legitimising fanworks (although I don't think they actually use the term legitimising), and I've never felt the urge to have fandom - which is a hobby to me - viewed as 'legitimate' on a societal level (but I'm not saying that fandom is something to be ashamed about/kept secret either).

The wiki project could be interesting/useful.

Basically, I don't find that OTW 'speaks' to me at this point in time. But I get the sense that it is coming (at least, in part) from a section of fandom that I've never really had a lot to do with. I think that the discussions around OTW demonstrates that there is a lot of diversity in fandom, which is something that I like.

I should also say that I do not enjoy seeing the really nasty responses to OTW - I think some people need to realise that even if it's not for them, they don't have to get vicious about it -- instead, they should get over it, and accept that because fandom is so diverse, OTW will work for some people, not work for others, and leave others still with mixed feelings.

No help on eFiction, I'm afraid! But my thoughts on OTW, I can show you them!
That's ok, I was really more interested in your thoughts anyway :)

I definitely understand the argument about women's work being undervalued, and exploited, and the way that an OTW archive is a counter to to such potential exploitation.
I haven't actually run across that much on the "Women's" side of this, mstly I've read stuff from the view of outsiders looking in on fandom, which is very teeth-gritty. Do you have links to any of these discussions? I'll admit, I was kind of surprised to see that they were saying fandom is mostly women. I don't necessarily agree that *fandom* is mostly women, but will concede that the fanfic aspect is mostly women.

However, I am uninterested in fandom and academia, and I don't feel the need to access a central archive at the moment.
Yeah, I'm not sure about the academia bit. I *like* how think-y fandom is, but sometimes we're a little too high-brow, especially when our common interest is squeeing over hot space heroes fighting alien vampires and robots.
As for the archive, I'm kinda meh about it. Sometimes I'm really excited about it, but other times I think about it and realize I probably won't use it that much. At least not while I'm in big fandoms like SGA where I have a 40 page to-read list of stuff I got off of my flist alone.
On the one hand, it would be nice to have a central archive that isn't neutered like ff.net is (if they had any more rules about what can and cannot be posted they wouldn't have any fic), but archives are notorious for having a lot of bad fic. On the other hand, it's nice to have a starting place that's well organized and has a large readership. Most of the people I know that post to ff.net do so because of the large readership, but still dislike the site. Also, if OTW is able to set up all that they want, it'll be a nice place for newbies to find first. Large multifandom archives are also nice if you get the sudden urge to read in an obscure fandom. *shrugs*

With regards to the legal defense fund - I don't know. Part of this, I feel, is about legitimising fanworks (although I don't think they actually use the term legitimising), and I've never felt the urge to have fandom - which is a hobby to me - viewed as 'legitimate' on a societal level
The legal defense fund is probably what I'm most excited about. I would hate it if suddenly TPTB decided to shut us down (and it has happened in the past). People spend so much time working on fandom, to have someone from the outside come in and say we can't makes me so angry. Also, to not have to worry about legal ramifications would be really nice. It would be nice to have an option other than roll over when TPTB come to tell us to.
But like you, I don't really care about what the outside thinks. In fact, I kind of like that not everyone knows what fandom is. I like being able to tell people that fandom is a hobby of mine, and not have them automatically think of bad explicit HP slash or other things that being put into the limelight would bring. I don't care if we're never acknowledged by mainstream culture, I just don't want to work in fandom with the fear of it being taken away from me.

Cont...

I think your thoughts on OTW are very positive, which is really nice to read.

Also, to not have to worry about legal ramifications would be really nice. It would be nice to have an option other than roll over when TPTB come to tell us to.

Would the defense fund support the individual author? Or the right to write fanfiction? I would like to have more clarification, but I think at this point, we can't get that - and this is one of the reason that I haven't taken a firm stance on OTW - I like to wait and see. This doesn't just apply to OTW - it applies to my approach to life in general!

But, I do have to admit that I feel a little cynical about the legal defense fund, and the potential weight that it could reasonably be expected to have.

Re: discussions on OTW - I can't remember specific links at this point, because they've been things I've run across through flist, and sometimes metafandom. But, the list of metafandom links to OTW discussion is here:
http://del.icio.us/metafandom/otw

I think your thoughts on OTW are very positive, which is really nice to read.
:P Maybe I'm just naive or haven't read enough about everything yet, but yeah, I'm positive about it. About the only downside I can see is if TPTB get freaked out by their legal stance, in which case, yeah things can go bad, but I don't think they're going to be lobbying to change anything, and instead are more going to do the research for a court battle now, and wait until they come to us, in which case, they've already come to us, so somethings going down already.

Would the defense fund support the individual author? Or the right to write fanfiction? I would like to have more clarification
Yeah, I just finished reading someones post saying that in the OTWs mission statements they only refer to fanworks, but I'd assume that if the fanwork isn't illegal, they can't attack the author (can they? I really don't know for sure). Also, I was just reading their site and they say This help will not be limited to those fans or projects directly connected with OTW. So yeah, my interpretation of that is, if *I* were to suddenly get in legal trouble for my fanworks, I can appeal to them for help, and they will at least consider helping me, regardless of whether the fanwork appears on their site or not.

I feel a little cynical about the legal defense fund, and the potential weight that it could reasonably be expected to have.
I do feel very strongly that the legal defense fund is a good thing. I'm not sure how good their argument about fair use is, but, if/when they go to court, I would support it, because I don't want to have to take this lying down. I think that if fandom got behind them, we could raise the money so that we're not forced out of court for money reasons, but actually, one of my concerns is that they might rely too much on volunteers for the court case. I know the board member who is a lawyer specializes in copy right, but still....

the list of metafandom links to OTW discussion is here
Cool! Thanks.

Maybe I'm just naive or haven't read enough about everything yet, but yeah, I'm positive about it.

I don't think you should feel that you are naive/haven't read enough. Don't negate your opinions!! :) Everyone has different reactions to this kind of project, and it's nice to see one that is focusing on the positives.

and they will at least consider helping me, regardless of whether the fanwork appears on their site or not.

Yes, that is how I would interpret it as well.

Don't negate your opinions!!
It's more, I'm not necissarily one of those people who sees the problems right away, and often have to have them pointed out to me, and I'm feeling a little behind, since I have about a mazillion windows open right now about the OTW but I just haven't had a chance to read them all.
The things I have had a chance to read though hasn't been able to dampen my enthusiasm though.

and they will at least consider helping me, regardless of whether the fanwork appears on their site or not.
That was the impression I got. I asked about the legal aid at the open chat yesterday, and I think people might be attributing more to it than they meant. I think they still want to be there for people, but they also seem to be really realistic about it too, and aren't planning on taking on copyright laws and their IP rights holders if they can avoid it.

The things I have had a chance to read though hasn't been able to dampen my enthusiasm though.

Cool!

The wiki project could be interesting/useful.
After I made this post, I read that there is already one here. I haven't really looked at it yet, but I book marked it. I really hope that they have a lot of the fandom/net acronyms on it. I hate it when people say things like DJSIEC, and I have no friggin' clue what the heck they're talking about. It took me about a year to find out what OTP stood for, and for the longest time I thought FTW was a polite/sneaky way of saying WTF (since it's backwards). Sometimes the context just isn't enough.

I should also say that I do not enjoy seeing the really nasty responses to OTW - I think some people need to realise that even if it's not for them, they don't have to get vicious about it -- instead, they should get over it, and accept that because fandom is so diverse, OTW will work for some people, not work for others, and leave others still with mixed feelings
I think that stems from the fact that the OTW is trying to some extent to be a representative front. Even if it's acknowledged that they aren't within fandom, those outside fandom won't see it that way, and people are afraid of being misrepresented. The person that left the link to the wiki commented that:

OTW suffers from the fact that the majority (if not the entirety) of the upper level (board +committees), as well as most of the supporters, are coming from extremely similar fannish backgrounds. Female-dominated media-based fandom (I should note that not all fanwork-producing fandom is “media fandom”, many of those of us who write RPF reject that label) focused on LiveJournal.

Not that any of those are bad things. But the view and experiences at the core of OTW are a small fraction of overall fannish views and experiences, and as such they tend to misunderstand/misrepresent segments of fandom they’re not used to. Not necessarily with any ill intent - although I do question why their response to “this doesn’t apply to my experience” or “this excludes me” tends to be “no it’s not, because I say so” rather than an attempt to understand - but it happens all the same.

And so as someone who falls outside their comfort zone, I have one main issue: if, in advocating for legitimacy, they succeed only in legitimizing that which they are currently presenting as fandom, those who are misrepresented are still out in the cold.

I’m also troubled by their disregard for anything outside their paradigm; their contempt and/or ignorance of existing projects (I still have yet to get a good explanation why they intend to create a wiki, when one is already in existence, and fairly successful) has me thinking they are only out to legitimize fandom on their terms, done their way.

It was that comment that really made me make this post, because I kind of assumed that most of fandom either liked the idea or were indifferent to it. To see people complain about it...
Of course my response to this person is, if they don't think they're section of fandom is being represented, then join in and represent it.
Also, the OTW is fairly new and can only work on so many projects at once, but I think they'd be open to more once they get their first few things done.

*waves* A friend pointed me to this post, I hope you don't mind me hopping into the discussion here :)

That comment you quoted was mine - I chose to use my real name rather than my fannish pseud to avoid gender confusion. And this:

Of course my response to this person is, if they don't think they're section of fandom is being represented, then join in and represent it.

Is a totally fair response. I actually have participated - I follow the community, I post comments when I have issues, I've written a couple metafandom-linked crit posts and welcomed discourse there. Which isn't to say "how dare you question my particpation, person who has no idea who I am", but just to point out that I do participate, and I'm not just running around bitching everywhere but to the people who could make changes based on my bitching :)

Also, the OTW is fairly new and can only work on so many projects at once, but I think they'd be open to more once they get their first few things done.<./i>

I totally get this, and my issue isn't so much with what they actually have/haven't done than with their attitude. And I should add my view of their attitude is perhaps unfairly colored by the amount of negative interactions I've had with non-"staff"(board/committee members) supporters when I've raised questions/criticisms.

But, to me, and to a few people I know, so far they've come across as very "we're going to do all these things the right way." Which I'm sure they're not doing on purpose, but...well, as an example, one of my very first problems with OTW was their announcement of a goal to create a fan history wiki, with no acknowledgement of one that already exists. And when I brought up the existing FanHistory wiki (http://www.fanhistory.com), the responses ranged from politely dismissive to downright vitriolic. And to see something I know has had hours and hours and hours of work put into it dismissed and insulted and heavily criticized (my favorites were the criticisms about incompleteness and factual error - it's a wiki, anyone is welcome to fix any error they find) and drug through the mud because it wasn't the right fan who owned it...I have a very hard time looking past that to see the good intentions.

I should point out I'm still not decided one way or the other how I feel about OTW. I think from a strictly marketing/PR standpoint they have a long way to go, I think they may be overambitious, I think they're treading in dangerous waters re: legal issues. But at the same time I think a lot of their issues stem from gaps in knowledge that anyone could be expected to have.

Time will tell if that "We'll do ___ the right way" attitude is a misconception, or a reality that will stand in the way of filling those gaps.

(/end butting in)

waves* A friend pointed me to this post, I hope you don't mind me hopping into the discussion here :)
No, I don't mind, feel free to jump right in. If I wanted to keep "outsiders" out, I'd lock the post. :P

And I meant what I said above, your comment is the one that made me stop and think "Huh, not all fans are behind this" and that's why I choose it to quote, and not any of the others, Sidebar would have been a much better example of what we were discussing.
Looking back, it seems silly that I would assume that all fans would like the idea (How long have I been in fandom? No one agrees about *anything*), it's just I'm one of those people that has to actually stop and think about something before other opinions occur to me. I'm rather short sighted like that.
Anyways....

Is a totally fair response. I actually have participated... t just to point out that I do participate, and I'm not just running around bitching everywhere but to the people who could make changes based on my bitching :)
That's good to know. It does bother me a bit how some people are saying they aren't being included, but aren't trying to be included either. Or those say they don't *want* to be included to the OTW should just fuck off.
BTW, how has the response to your "bitching" been? (Links are fine, since you said you had made some metafandom posts, which I will probably get around to *some time* when the holidays aren't taking up all my time). I'm curious as to how the OTW is handling things, since, for the most part, I've only had a chance to read a few people's reactions to all this.

I totally get this, and my issue isn't so much with what they actually have/haven't done than with their attitude. And I should add my view of their attitude is perhaps unfairly colored by the amount of negative interactions I've had with non-"staff"(board/committee members) supporters when I've raised questions/criticisms.
OMG, isn't *that* the truth. It seems the supporters always seem to give the "thing" a bad name... which I guess is one of the arguments made against fandom when it comes to legal ground. We may encourage each other, but outsiders just want to take a big step back.

But, to me, and to a few people I know, so far they've come across as very "we're going to do all these things the right way."
Hmm, in some ways, I think that's exactly what they're *trying* to do, even if they're not outright saying it. I mean the idea was based on "This is what we have, and it's not working, so we're going to make our own." The fans on LJ feel that a lot. Most of my friends online are anti-ff.net, because of all their stupid rules (the rating rule being a big one, since we read/write slash), the poor ratio of good fics compared to bad fics, and, well, the mentality of some of the people over there (not to say it's a great one over here). That environment doesn't work for us. Neither do a lot of the alternatives (is Quizilla *really* considered a fanfic archive?), even livejournal, where a lot of us currently reside. LJ always kind of sucked as an archive, but now it's beginning to fail as a safe haven for fandom too.
The archives out there are failing fans *here* and AAOOO was the answer to that. It's just sort of grown since then.

As for the wiki, I don't think it's a reflection spefically on that site. I personally had never heard of it before, I'll definitely use it now that it's been pointed out to me though. I noticed that my fandom doesn't seem to be very represented on there, so I signed up for an account, and will see about fixing that.

Cont...

That's good to know. It does bother me a bit how some people are saying they aren't being included, but aren't trying to be included either. Or those say they don't *want* to be included to the OTW should just fuck off.

My problem with saying that is...I don't necessarily want to be included (like I said, I haven't decided yet). But if they're misrepresenting my segments of fandom, I'm going to speak up as long as they claim to be representing those segments.

IMO, they should cut RPF out of their legal/advocacy stuff (it's on much firmer legal ground than FPF, for the most part, so it doesn't NEED to be included there) - welcome it on the archive and in the wiki, but so far I'm not seeing much understanding of the legal issues RPF does face, and I'm...undecided on whether I think they seem willing to learn. They listened to us whiners about "media fandom != all of fandom", but I'm still not convinced they're really listening, you know? Like, they changed that one thing but from where I'm sitting they're still making mistakes that say to me they missed our broader point, that RPF and media-based fandom aren't the same thing and can't be accurately represented using solely the terminology of one of those.

I've been told by an OTW committee member OTW isn't so much about "LOOK AT MEEEEE" as "if you're already looking this way, lemme turn on the light so you can see right"...but regardless, by their nature they'll be getting attention from outside sources, and if they're presenting inaccurate information about fandom, are they really serving their purpose well?

So whether or not I ultimately want to be involved with the organization, I don't think it's unfair of me to correct misinformation when I see it. I do think, however, there's a difference between correcting misinfo and bitching, and yeah, people whose comments boil down to "how dare you not do this this and this exactly my way, not that I'd be interested even if you did" would probably benefit from just taking their ball and going home.

BTW, how has the response to your "bitching" been? (Links are fine, since you said you had made some metafandom posts, which I will probably get around to *some time* when the holidays aren't taking up all my time). I'm curious as to how the OTW is handling things, since, for the most part, I've only had a chance to read a few people's reactions to all this.

From the actual OTW staff, it's generally been...pleasant, but somewhat dry and corporate. Lots of somewhat-meaningless PR babble and "I'll get back to you later with an official response". Which isn't all bad - it feels odd in a fannish space to be interacted with on a business level, but it certainly could be worse.

While I'm aware it's somewhat unfair of me to judge the organization by its supporters, I would like to mention the response from many OTWers has been...well, I mentioned in a friend's LJ my big problem with the OTWers I've had the more frustrating arguments with is it never seems to be enough to say "this language feels exclusive; were I coming upon this for the first time today, 'x' would leave me thinking I wasn't included", people expect justification, factual backup, fandom credentials, links to usage of x with intention to exclude, on and on and on to the point it feels less like an argument about the inclusivity of x and more like me on trial - as if my exclusion is somehow my fault.

I'll get you links...at some point, lol. I think I have a list saved somewhere :)

Or those say they don't *want* to be included to the OTW should just fuck off.
...hmm, it looks like I was thinking faster than I was typing when I wrote that, what I actually *meant* to say was the people who say they don't want to be part of the OTW and the OTW should fuck off (not that I think the people who don't want to be included should fuck off, that kind of goes against what I was saying before...).

But if they're misrepresenting my segments of fandom, I'm going to speak up as long as they claim to be representing those segments.
Yeah, I can't really claim to beleive that the OTW totally knows all of fandom. The part that really gets me is that they say fandom is a female thing. And I can see where you'd get that impression if you're a slasher, but there are plenty of guys in fandom, they just move in different circles.

IMO, they should cut RPF out of their legal/advocacy stuff
Wow, is that ever a bad idea.
Can you imagine if the OTW went out there saying "We're here to help should there be legal troubles... unless you're into RPF, then you're SOL"

I think people really misinterpret the legal side of things. When they say they are proactive on the legal side of things, they mean they're doing the research, and building a case now in the hopes that they never have to go to court. And they're going to be taking things one problem at a time. They're not out to revolutionize copyright law. When I asked at the meeting last night, they even said they might not be able to take some cases on, depending on the chances, resources and people involved. The last thing they want is to go in and *lose*.
Someone also asked last night about how they plan to treat RPS on their legal side, but I'll admit, I don't really remember the answer, but it should be in the transcript once they post it.

...hmm, it looks like I was thinking faster than I was typing when I wrote that, what I actually *meant* to say was the people who say they don't want to be part of the OTW and the OTW should fuck off (not that I think the people who don't want to be included should fuck off, that kind of goes against what I was saying before...)

Haha, I hate when I do that.

Wow, is that ever a bad idea.
Can you imagine if the OTW went out there saying "We're here to help should there be legal troubles... unless you're into RPF, then you're SOL"

I think it depends how they approach it. There are a couple reasons I think OTW would benefit from cutting RPF out of legal/advocacy work:

- the culture of RPFandom where it doesn't have a community that comes mainly from media fandom is different than the culture of media fandom (this is a hugely broad statement, I know, just liberally apply "for the most part"s all over, lol). To me, misrepresenting that culture - as they have done several times - is worse than saying "At the moment, we don't feel our knowledge of RPFandom is extensive enough to represent it properly in our advocacy work. RPF will always be welcome in our archive, and RPFers are of course welcome in the Organization, but while we work with members of RPF communities to broaden our understanding, we will refrain from advocating something we don't feel we understand fully."

- The legal issues surrounding RPF are very different from those concerning media-based fandom, and I haven't seen any evidence they understand those. I know they're not after changing laws or being revolutionary, but if they're offering any sort of legal help I'd feel more comfortable if I felt they understood what the specific issues were. And again, it's all in how they handle it. "Of course we want to help any and every one in fandom who may run into legal trouble, but we offer this help with the admittance that, being mainly media fandomers ourselves, our knowledge of the legalities surrounding RPF is somewhat limited. We are always working to educate ourselves further, and we will absolutely not turn away anyone looking for help, but we want you to be aware RPF is not our area of expertise."

So not necessarily cutting it out fully (although, really, I'd be far more comfortable if they DID cut RPF out of their advocacy work because already I've seen bloggers referring to fandom-as-a-whole with "media fandom", and ARGH), but even just admitting their limitations would make me a happy camper.

Ok, I don't really have time to reply properly to your comments, since I'm going to be leaving in a few minutes to spend New Year's at a friends, but here's the but of the transcript that applies to the RPF legal stuff (I've edited out some extra stuff like who was leaving the chat room and mod commands):
Hi! My question, shockingly, is also on
the legal side of things.
first, i want to applaud you guys for
having a big-tent approach to fannish work. it seems
like it would be easy to say, "we're here for fic
because we think we can win with fic, but the vidders
are on their own," etc.
however, RPS in particular seems to have
its own set of legal issues, yet i've only seen
comment so far on the fanfic/fanvid side of things.
are you guys working on specific
messages/defenses for RPS/RPF?
I will start by saying that probably we
will set up a chat with Rebecca Tushnet, our head of
Legal, who can give the really correct answers to all
the legal questions
well, from a CommRel perspective, as well.
not being a lawyer, I will say that my
understanding from our discussions is that RPS/RPF are
on much more solid and understood ground
legally speaking
with respect to libel?
we definitely *are* concerned about them
in terms of caring about RPS and RPF
and wanting to protect them too
libel/defamation/slander you are totally
safe as long as it is clear the work is fiction
in my nonlawyer understanding!
right.
are there other legal aspects for RPF
that you are specifically concerned about?
since RPF pushes a good number of people's
squick buttons pretty hard, is OTW going to work on a
"message" about why it's legit?
and why it's included?
let me actually answer this more
generally -- we are not looking to judge squick/squee,
period. that is, we have zero desire as an org to get
into the business of deciding what is "worthy" or
"good" and don't think it is our place
we're going to include everything that
our legal team tells us we can that does not risk
getting us sent to jail :>
ha ha, awesome. thanks.
(Anything else, Lottelita?)
not at the moment!

Ok, back from holidays, but only on my lunch, so I probably won't be able to respond to everything.

"At the moment, we don't feel our knowledge of RPFandom is extensive enough to represent it properly in our advocacy work. RPF will always be welcome in our archive, and RPFers are of course welcome in the Organization, but while we work with members of RPF communities to broaden our understanding, we will refrain from advocating something we don't feel we understand fully."
Well, the impression that I got from the chat is that they are acknowledging that they don't know all the legal ins about outs involved with RPF, but they don’t know all the legal ins and outs of FPF either, but they are going to invest time into learning those ins and outs in case anything ever comes of it in court.
I also got the impression that if it does ever go to court, they’re going to do whatever to win that specific case, and they’re not going to try and make it about *all* fanfiction. It might be used as precedence in a case later, but they’re not going to try and mash all fandom in as one thing.

if they're offering any sort of legal help I'd feel more comfortable if I felt they understood what the specific issues were. And again, it's all in how they handle it. "Of course we want to help any and every one in fandom who may run into legal trouble, but we offer this help with the admittance that, being mainly media fandomers ourselves, our knowledge of the legalities surrounding RPF is somewhat limited. We are always working to educate ourselves further, and we will absolutely not turn away anyone looking for help, but we want you to be aware RPF is not our area of expertise."
Except… they’d end up saying that an awful lot.
So far, most of the focus has been on fanfic, media fanfic if you’d like, but they’re offering their services for all fanworks, this includes things like vids, and artwork made, it includes fan videos (scripted acts) and manips. It includes book fandoms, TV fandoms, movie fandoms and the RP fandom (and probably more that I can’t think of at the moment).
The main lawyer they have on the board is American. What if it’s an Australian that needs legal help? Are they to put a warning up that they only know American law?
The purpose of the legal side of things is to *build* a case, any knowledge that they bring to the table now is just a bonus. And they want to develop a network of contacts so they can have people to call on in case something is beyond their current abilities, but that being said, if the lawyers that are on the board are professionals, then I would think they’d be professional enough to take what’s given to them. Each case is going to need it’s own research, each case is probably going to need outside help, it’s just a matter of where to go for that outside help.
So yeah, I don’t think the RPF writer is much less represented than a Canadian vid maker (like me).

Well, the impression that I got from the chat is that they are acknowledging that they don't know all the legal ins about outs involved with RPF, but they don’t know all the legal ins and outs of FPF either, but they are going to invest time into learning those ins and outs in case anything ever comes of it in court.

Mm, I think that section of the chat was good to hear.

they’re not going to try and mash all fandom in as one thing

But by claiming they intend to use "transformative" as a defense for RPF, they're doing just that. Rather than ask about it - and I know multiple people have given them the name of someone who's done a ton of legal RPF research - they chose to assume and just mash it in there. I suppose time will tell if that changes, but that's where my feeling they're not necessarily willing to learn comes from - times where they have chosen to assume rather than learn.

The main lawyer they have on the board is American. What if it’s an Australian that needs legal help? Are they to put a warning up that they only know American law?

Point taken.

So yeah, I don’t think the RPF writer is much less represented than a Canadian vid maker (like me).

In essence, you're right. But from a language sense, they've been very careful to keep their language inclusive of all types of fanworks - ficcing, vidding, art, etc. - while the first time anyone said "um, your language isn't so much making with the including RPF" the reaction was...less than good. But, yeah, you're right.

Well, I don't really know that much about RPF and the OTW reactions, so in this case I'm going to have to bow to your experience.

Dah! That was me, I forgot that I had deleted my cookies and would have to sign back in. Sorry about that.

OMG, isn't *that* the truth. It seems the supporters always seem to give the "thing" a bad name... which I guess is one of the arguments made against fandom when it comes to legal ground. We may encourage each other, but outsiders just want to take a big step back.

Mmhm.

There are two reasons I'm not totally averse to judging OTW at least in part by its supporters:

a) as time has gone on, actual OTW staff have responded to my comments less and less - the last issue I raised, no official OTW people said a thing. If they're okay handing what really boils down to customer service complaints over to customers with no complaints, I look at that the same as implicit approval of what those customers are saying to the complainer.

b) there are really two approaches one can take to being judged: idealistic (no one SHOULD judge, so I'll behave as if no one DOES judge) and realistic (people are judgmental, how can I adjust my behavior to be judged in the proper light? [hopefully with the stipulation "as well as maintain my integrity", but God knows that doesn't always happen). I'm more on the realistic side, and I'm sure an advocacy group focused on a horribly misinterpreted pastime is going to be judged. And people will judge based on the members even when they don't speak in any official capacity - if someone's interactions with OTW members have all been bad, it may be fair for them to look into the organization and see how condoned that negative behavior is, but most people wouldn't bother. OTW members I've met are assholes = OTW are assholes, in many people's minds.

The logic is as flawed as judging fandom as a whole based on the OMG I ROTEZ THIS @ 2 AM ON A SUGAR HI!!!!!!!!!1111 crowd, but it happens. And the response to that is generally "um, we're not all sugar-crazed insomniac grammar-hating kiddies, really" - but OTW's not distancing itself from the "your feelings of exclusion are only valid if you can prove them to me" people.

Hmm, in some ways, I think that's exactly what they're *trying* to do, even if they're not outright saying it.

Tone doesn't come across well on the internet, heh. You're right - but what I meant to say was more...snooty. "No one else can do this right, so here we come to save fandom from itself".

Which I'm sure they're not trying to do. But a lot of the time that's how the OTW effort reads to me.

as time has gone on, actual OTW staff have responded to my comments less and less
Not that I'm condoning it, but, I think they've become a little overwhelemed by fandoms response, and they're taking the time to give official responses, rather than just have volunteers go out and give what they think is the correct answer. I know that at last night's chat, they would take a while to answer because all the mod type people had a seperate chat going on where they discussed what to say.
When you're online, people are used to getting answers immediately. They don't want to have to wait, because a day in internet time is about a week in real time. But since the OTW is a corporation, and since they are what outsiders are going to be seeing if they take a look at fandom, they have to be very careful to act like one, and make sure that all it's volunteers aren't going out and giving conflicting information.

I still think that they'd be better off though, writing up a better FAQ, and having more chances for people to openly ask questions.

what I meant to say was more...snooty. "No one else can do this right, so here we come to save fandom from itself".
Hmm, I suppose, but I more saw it as, "People always complian about how the resources we have don't fit fandom properly, or we're shocked when they don't take into account fandoms needs. Some people try to fix this, but it's too much for one person alone, so here's a big group with a lot of support that will stand a better chance of fixing this."

Not that I'm condoning it, but, I think they've become a little overwhelemed by fandoms response, and they're taking the time to give official responses, rather than just have volunteers go out and give what they think is the correct answer. I know that at last night's chat, they would take a while to answer because all the mod type people had a separate chat going on where they discussed what to say.

Oh yeah, I get why...but at the same time, I think if they see a discussion getting heated, or going on for quite a while, at least stepping in with a little "interesting point, we're discussing this and I'll be back with a real answer later" note would be better than nothing.

I still think that they'd be better off though, writing up a better FAQ, and having more chances for people to openly ask questions.

Definitely. I think the chat was a step in the right direction (and I hate that I couldn't make it for more than a few minutes at a time) and I'm glad they scrapped the original plan for a room that only allowed 25 people at a time; I think the TOS/TOU focus group is a step that way, too. I know opening things up to community scrutiny can be problematic in a getting-things-done sense, but with the way fandom operates, taking community input at every opportunity is probably the best PR move they could make.

Where OTW runs into trouble, really, is they have to please two worlds at once - the "outside" world, and fandom. And both worlds require different things (for example, the board using their legal names and not disclosing their fannish identities - the legal names are what the outside world wants, but especially in the wake of FanLib, fandom's more concerned with proof of fannish involvement...so how do they please both and still maintain their privacy?), and every time those requirements conflict and they decide one way or the other, they're risking pissing off one side.

So what it really comes down to is deciding which side to come down on for which issue - like, for advocacy work they should probably favor the outside world more, for tools like the archive it's obviously more important to please fandom.

It's an interesting tightrope to walk, and one I'm not sure I envy ;)

Hmm, I suppose, but I more saw it as, "People always complian about how the resources we have don't fit fandom properly, or we're shocked when they don't take into account fandoms needs. Some people try to fix this, but it's too much for one person alone, so here's a big group with a lot of support that will stand a better chance of fixing this."

It's really all down to interpretation, innit. I'm not arguing (and have never intended to argue) the people seeing OTW in a positive light are wrong (and no OTW-thoughts post pisses me off more than those that try to say the dissenters are wrong because they disagree with the OP - to that end, and considering the person who linked me here has a bad habit of linking me to the THE WHINERS ARE WRONG BECAUSE OTW ROOLZ posts, this post was rather refreshing). I think what they need to succeed, in the end, will be a healthy mix - the positive encouragement, and the whiners like me finding weak spots. And sometimes the supporters will miss glaring weak spots in their excitement, and sometimes the dissenters will find problems where there are none, because no one's perfect...but if the supporters get upset that the dissenters exist and drive them all away, someday one of those weak spots that got missed will bring down OTW. And if the dissenters drive away the supporters, I doubt there's anyone on Earth who wouldn't get fed up with the constant nitpicking and start wondering why the Hell they even bother.

Oh yeah, I get why...but at the same time, I think if they see a discussion getting heated, or going on for quite a while, at least stepping in with a little "interesting point, we're discussing this and I'll be back with a real answer later" note would be better than nothing.
I think though, that while certainly in some cases they’d be able to do that without any problems, it’s a little too much to ask for the board to go out searching for discussions all over the internet and try and answer questions. I mean, have a look at

metafandom and how so many of the posts are about the OTW lately, and that’s just the ones they’re catching. There are a ton of other discussions happening in a ton of different places (including message boards, blogs that aren’t on LJ, mailing lists, in RL, you name it), and I don’t think they’re going to be able to track them all down.
Instead what they’re doing is providing people with a place to come to them with such questions. Despite the fact that people seem to be really confused over the OTW and their stance on things, the chat last week had very few people there. I don’t think there was ever more than 30 people in the room, and about 6 of those were from the OTW.

Where OTW runs into trouble, really, is they have to please two worlds at once - the "outside" world, and fandom.
Yeah, that’s definitely going to be their big problem, and at the moment I kind of feel that they’re moving in more of a RL mode than a fannish one, but I think if they’re a legal company they have to. That’s why they’re using real names instead of fannish ones, because it’s required by law, but I also think that most people know their fannish names as well, at least if they’re a person who would know their fannish names already.
Personally, I think that working in a RL mode is more important at the moment, and I just wish that fandom would realize that they need to. If we are ever taken to court, it’s really important that the OTW can be looked at and seen as a professional organization and not as a group of squeeing fan girls.

considering the person who linked me here has a bad habit of linking me to the THE WHINERS ARE WRONG BECAUSE OTW ROOLZ posts, this post was rather refreshing).
Well like I said, I have my gut reaction, but I see that it’s not everyone’s reaction, so want more info (and am too lazy to read the 50 million posts about it right away, I’m working on it though, about 10 down only 49,999,950 to go :P)

I think what they need to succeed, in the end, will be a healthy mix - the positive encouragement, and the whiners like me finding weak spots.
And I’m not saying that people shouldn’t point out weak spots, but I must admit, I’m getting rather tired of people not giving them a chance to work things out. It seems that some people want things to be done perfectly or not at all. That if they aren’t recognized in their own unique way, then the OTW shouldn’t even try.
Every group has it’s bumps, and hurdles to get over, the OTW just needs to be given a chance to try.

Whoops! I wasn't specific enough - when I talked about them not stepping into discussions I was specifically talking about discussions in the actual

otw_news comm. My bad :)

Personally, I think that working in a RL mode is more important at the moment, and I just wish that fandom would realize that they need to.

Part of me says "right on!" to this, because yeah - squeeing fangirls don't really win hearts and minds.

But part of me...well, really, it's that space between "people shouldn't judge, so I'll act as if they don't", and "people do judge, so I'll adjust my behavior". Fandom judges, fandom wanks, fandom pries and questions and pokes at things and demands to know exactly who's trying to capitalize on them. Fandom is unlikely to shut up and just accept OTW knows what they're doing, whether they should or not, particularly if it looks like OTW's painting a big bullseye.

You are right, really - if OTW expects to deal with Real World things, it must cater to what the Real World expects. But consider the fandomers who don't want fandom to be adapted to the Real World, who will think that's what OTW's after - they're not gonna listen to "but but but the Real World".

Every group has it’s bumps, and hurdles to get over, the OTW just needs to be given a chance to try.

Most definitely.

Whoops! I wasn't specific enough
Ahh, I was thinking back to the chat where someone complained that the OTW is based too much on LJ, and that they should move off of LJ sice so many people are pissed with it :P

when I talked about them not stepping into discussions I was specifically talking about discussions in the actual otw_news comm
Yeah, I was a little surprised that they had a chat instead of just opening a thread on the LJ. But I think part of it is having everyone sit down at once to talk about this stuff, and also, I think the same questions are being asked over and over again, even when they do answer. Which is why I think they need a better FAQ.

But part of me...well, really, it's that space between "people shouldn't judge, so I'll act as if they don't", and "people do judge, so I'll adjust my behavior". Fandom judges, fandom wanks, fandom pries and questions and pokes at things and demands to know exactly who's trying to capitalize on them. Fandom is unlikely to shut up and just accept OTW knows what they're doing, whether they should or not, particularly if it looks like OTW's painting a big bullseye.
Yeah, but in the vein, since there are always going to be people demanding information, no matter how open they are; people saying it sucks, no matter how good they are (and people loving it no matter how bad they are) I can see why they might choose the path that gets things *done* rather than having the most open communication, since it'll work out more if they can *show* us they can do this rather than *tell* us.

Other people though... part of it could be that they'd rather have someone they know and trust run it (enough fan sites out there have started out by good intentioned people who then reach the end of their rope and close it down. I noticed that there's a not on the wiki against that, but still, in general), but it could also be that a wiki is only as good as the people putting effort into it, and they feel that the OTW will have a big enough following to make their wiki better, simply because that's something that they could help with and say they were an active part of OTW.
... hmm, I'm doing a really bad job explaining in words what I mean here. Really, bad. It's... I also think that the fact that something already exists isn't enough of an excuse to the members of the OTW not to make another one, because there are already things out there for all of the projects they'd like to make. There are already quite a few multi fandom archives, that many people totally love, and feel insulted that anyone would try to replace, there are already social networking sites out there (so, so many), I'm sure there's already groups out there trying to document fannish history (I know there was a fairly comprehensive list of the HP fandom in the earlier years out there somewhere), and I *know* there are already people out there looking into the legalities of fandom in general. Just because something already exists doesn't mean that the OTW can't make another. And even if the other alternative out there is a *good* one, the OTW wants to present an "all in one" feel for newcomers to fandom, and to fandom as a whole. Someone who's been in fandom for a while, or who has taken the time already to look for a wiki might see the one you linked to, but many others have no idea of it's existence. They want to have one that's right there in a central location.
And I don't think the OTW is going to go looking for affiliates, at least not anywhere near the beginning, because it opens up a whole *other* can of worms (why did you choose one over the other? And the fans/users of the "other" might come to resent the OTW for not choosing them, while they still have to deal with the one they choose, and all the expectations of the existing users, as well and their rules and how they fit into the OTWs rules). I do have to wonder though, if the owner of that wiki were to speak to the OTW and offer up her wiki to be the OTW wiki if they wouldn't take her up on it, I don't know, but it does sound like a much easier solution to me.

I should point out I'm still not decided one way or the other how I feel about OTW.
Yeah, I was decided, but it really does depend on how things turn out. They can still screw us up yet :P

Gah! I just can't shut up it seems, sorry for the hugely long repsonse....

Other people though... part of it could be that they'd rather have someone they know and trust run it (enough fan sites out there have started out by good intentioned people who then reach the end of their rope and close it down. I noticed that there's a not on the wiki against that, but still, in general), but it could also be that a wiki is only as good as the people putting effort into it, and they feel that the OTW will have a big enough following to make their wiki better, simply because that's something that they could help with and say they were an active part of OTW.

I've heard that argument before. And...I get it, but not...hm. It's like you mentioning my comment in Scalzi was the first you thought of other fans disagreeing with OTW because the idea just hadn't occurred to you, and a while ago someone putting forward the idea that the group using "bamdom" to mean not "band fandom" but "fandom of a very specific group of bands" were doing so because they hadn't thought of fandoms existing based on bands outside that group, not contributing to a wiki based on who runs it just never occurred to me.

It's a reasonable argument, for sure, just not one I'd ever really thought of, and not one that really resonates with me.

Not contributing because a wiki is only as good as its contributors, however, really doesn't make sense to me. It's the same thing as people who, when I pimp FanworksFinder (http://www.fanworksfinder.com), decide not to use it because their fandom isn't well-represented yet.

"I won't do it because no one else has" just...doesn't sit right with me as a justification.

I also think that the fact that something already exists isn't enough of an excuse to the members of the OTW not to make another one, because there are already things out there for all of the projects they'd like to make.

There are, definitely. I think where I don't like that as a justification for doing another wiki is mainly that with all those other things that already exist, they're planning on doing them differently in some way - there aren't multifandom archives that really do take everything (no porn, no RPF, no slash, no het, no gen, etc.), there aren't social networking sites integrated with archives, etc. The wiki's the one area they appear to be doing the exact same thing as someone else in fandom, and it's the one area I think a collaboration would be most beneficial - I think multiple Wikis will be more fragmentary than helpful.

I do have to wonder though, if the owner of that wiki were to speak to the OTW and offer up her wiki to be the OTW wiki if they wouldn't take her up on it, I don't know, but it does sound like a much easier solution to me.

They've talked about it a bit, I know, but only after OTW announced plans for a wiki. I happen to think - and I'll be careful how I word this, because I've seen her get really criticized for sounding self-centered when she said this - I would've liked to see them contact her. But that has a lot to do with my view of their board+committees as very insular and representing a specific segment of fandom - I think they would've benefitted from talking to archivists and other fannish people of influence from more varied backgrounds earlier.

not contributing to a wiki based on who runs it just never occurred to me.
It's actually a pretty big factor to a lot of people. Fandom after all is one big school ground where the cool kids are still the ones with the influence. I know that when I had recently joined a fandom, I tried to start an archive for it, because the main one was shut down (because the owner decided they had had enough, and they didn't even give the members any warning). I had a few people help me out, and managed to get it up really quickly, but because I wasn't well known, and the people helping me out weren't BNFs, my archive was quickly overshadowed by one that was opened much later by BNFs. Even though I had contacted all of the authors who had posted on the site that was taken down, they all decided that they'd rather wait for a BNF to put up a site than trust someone they didn't know. There were other factors involved too, but that was a really big one.

Not contributing because a wiki is only as good as its contributors, however, really doesn't make sense to me.
It does and it doesn't for me. On the one hand it's a self fulfilling prophecy, but on the other hand, do you really want to put a lot of work into something when you're not sure it'll take off? That no one else in your fandom is going to care? If the owner/members don't care enough to work to get us to contribute, why should I (generalized I here) waste my time trying to do so. Especially when there's another one around the corner that *is* trying to get my attention. That is doing it's best to get a wide variety of members, and is going to be attached to something that by it's nature will be getting a lot of traffic and a wide variety of members.

The wiki's the one area they appear to be doing the exact same thing as someone else in fandom
I still don't think that's a reason for them not to do it. If only because as a bigger more well known group of people, with a wide variety of members, theirs is going to be bigger and offer things to more people than the one that already exists. And while *some* people are willing to take the time to go fill in a wiki, most just want to show up and have information there for them, so that respect the current wiki is failing.
The OTW is also probably going to be taking a slightly different approach to how they build and organize their wiki, so it won't actually be exactly the same.

I happen to think - and I'll be careful how I word this, because I've seen her get really criticized for sounding self-centered when she said this - I would've liked to see them contact her.
If the owners reason for not contacting the OTW is because she feels that they should have contacted her, then it's no wonder that people feel she's being self-centered. That's not really an excuse at all.
When it comes down to it, she's not a threat to the OTW; there are a hell of a lot more people devoted to ff.net than there are to the wiki.
Cont...

do you really want to put a lot of work into something when you're not sure it'll take off?

For some reason it makes more sense to me worded like that, lol. I always think of it as "I'm not doing any work until I see other people doing it", which just seems like a silly argument to me. "I don't want to waste my time until I'm sure this'll go somewhere" still isn't something that resonates with me, but I get it more.

The thing about any site is, there is going to be a wide variety of people using it. And they all come in with different expectations.

You, for example, seem to have no trouble working for what you want. There are however a ton of lurkers, who no matter how much they want something, won't put the time into getting it (sometimes out of laziness, sometimes out of something else, I know I had some really deep set fears of coming out of lurkerdom when I first joined fandom). And then there are people like me, who love fandom, but always tries to take on more than I have time for, so I don't want to spend what little fandom time I have working on something that either I'm never going to use again after my fervor for it dies down, or, especially, that not very many people are going to use after I work on it (I have too many labours of love going on to spend time on one that isn't going to be used).

The OTW probably feels that they can do their thing, and let her do hers. Most of fandom has never heard of her wiki, so they're not feeling any bad feelings. She's the one that's feeling threatened (and to be honest, the site has been open since 2005, and there's less than 8000 articles, I don't think the OTW is going to have any problems reaching that number in far less time), so as mean as it sounds, she needs the OTW more than they need her. If she feels her site is threatened by what the OTW is doing, she has two options, do what she thinks is best for fandom (whether it means joining or staying where she is); do whatever she thinks will put her hard work, and the work of other who have contributed to it’s best use. Or she can sit on the fence and talk about how they’re not treating her properly, not giving her efforts the respect the deserve.

But like I said, setting up the basics for a wiki is easy, the code is open source after all, the real effort is getting information put into the wiki, and the OTW already has enough support all over to make that part easy too. The don’t really need to the existing wiki to move forward, and I really can’t see them extending that courtesy to the wiki owner when they haven’t done so to any of the other groups that they are making an alternative for just because in this case, there’s only one other main alternative (there are a ton of fandom specific wiki’s out there already).

I think they would've benefitted from talking to archivists and other fannish people of influence from more varied backgrounds earlier.
Umm, Naomi is an archivist. She's the one who created the Automated Archive software that a lot of archives are based off of, and has been running archive for almost 14 years. Didn't I also hear that the creator of Skyhawke is volunteering with them? And reading the bios of the board, one of them also runs a huge Buffy archive. They seem to have a lot of experience to me....

I think where I have trouble talking about the Wiki issue is I'm friends with the FanHistory owner, so I have trouble removing my bias.

I don't, and won't claim to, know what her reasons were for wishing they'd contacted her.

From where I'm sitting it contributes to that idea of "we're gonna come in and do all these things right since obviously no one else can"...and to some extent time will tell on that.

I have a hard time seeing how a fandom wiki could be fundamentally different than another fandom wiki, but if OTW's IS noticeably different, that'll probably appease me.

If they just do the same thing over again? Good reason or not, I personally have an issue with them coming in and duplicating something I know a lot of time and effort has gone into without so much as a nod at the original. Which, I suppose, is all down to personal issues. That bothers me, there are lots of people who aren't bothered by it.

Umm, Naomi is an archivist. She's the one who created the Automated Archive software that a lot of archives are based off of, and has been running archive for almost 14 years. Didn't I also hear that the creator of Skyhawke is volunteering with them? And reading the bios of the board, one of them also runs a huge Buffy archive. They seem to have a lot of experience to me....

Oh! I didn't mean to imply there's no experience there - "more varied backgrounds" is the important part of that sentence. Their experience is almost exclusively media-based, LJ-centered and female. Not that there's anything wrong with any of those, but their collective knowledge is all gleaned from similar experiences, and I think they'd only benefit from reaching out to different corners of fandom.

If they just do the same thing over again? Good reason or not, I personally have an issue with them coming in and duplicating something I know a lot of time and effort has gone into without so much as a nod at the original.

Er, yeah, pretty much where I stand as well, as someone who's put a lot of time and work into the FanHistory wiki at this point and not inclined to repeat those efforts just for the sake of repeating myself elsewhere.

Er, yeah, pretty much where I stand as well, as someone who's put a lot of time and work into the FanHistory wiki at this point and not inclined to repeat those efforts just for the sake of repeating myself elsewhere.
I tend to look at the fan wiki as I would a newpaper (or new program, or a history book). It's all well and good to have a really great source available to you, but it's equally important to have more than one source. Because no matter how much people try, and no matter how many people work on that source, there's still going to be biases, and certain aspects are going to be misrepresented. I personally wouldn't want people to go in and copy what they've done elsewhere, I'd rather have a new source, that offers yet another opinion, so that when I go out to research something, I have more than one option, and can, instead of copying what someone else has said, take what others have said and form my own opinions.

Also, as I said to

hector_rashbaum neither writing down fanish history nor using a wiki format are original ideas. Putting the two together isn't even necissarily an original idea, since there's more than one fannish wiki out there (even if they are fandom specific). Saying that something shouldn't be done, simply because it's been done before isn't really an excuse, if it were, the current fandom wiki wouldn't exist.

I have a hard time seeing how a fandom wiki could be fundamentally different than another fandom wiki, but if OTW's IS noticeably different, that'll probably appease me.
It's going to be different if only because it's likely to be different people working on it. The OTW has come off as very academically oriented, and I think that it's likely going to show in their wiki as everyone puts their thinking caps on. They are also dealing with a whole boat load of fandoms at the moment, and so are more likely to get a wider response from them.

If they just do the same thing over again?
I actually have no problem what so ever of them doing something over again. Think of RL. How horrible would it be if there were only one history text that *everyone* used. Or only one newspaper or news channel to watch. There may be a single one that you choose to watch, but you always have the variety out there, and it keeps facts straight. Because some people will always put their bias into, or slant information a certain way, and without more than one resource for people to fact check against, they can never come to their own conclusions, and the truth just gets hidden. Fandom’s not exactly like that, but still, I think it applies to any history taking. I think it should be *required* that there be more than one source.

I personally have an issue with them coming in and duplicating something I know a lot of time and effort has gone into without so much as a nod at the original.
See, and here, I would say that the other wiki has absolutely *no* claim at *all* on being original. None.
They are not the first wiki out there. They are not the first to write out fan history, or make a resource available to a community to edit/add to that records fan history, and our quirks. I doubt they’re even the first to make a fandom wiki (because I know quite a few fandom specific wiki’s out there that can be quite extensive). They may not even have been the first to put the two together, even if they’re the only real one out there now.
Just because some takes two unoriginal ideas and puts them together (in ways that are suggested by both of the other ideas) does not give them a special standard over any that might fallow. It doesn’t give them special treatment of consideration. I’m sure at one point there was only on archive out there, only one fanzine, only one rec list, but just because there’s one, doesn’t mean there can’t, or worse, *shouldn’t* be another.
Think of how much it would stunt fandom if we were told, each fandom should only have one rec list, or if you want to rec fic, you have to acknowledge that you weren’t the first to do so?
I think of archives too. Within my fandom, SGA there are multiple fandom specific archives competing for attention. Most of them run off of the eFiction archive script. Should only one be allowed? Should all the other sites have to get their own scripts (even though eFiction is free and is available to *anyone*) to be polite, or else acknowledge that another site tried it first? That’s ridiculous.
The only difference here, is that there aren’t that many fandom wiki’s out there. But you know what? That’s probably going to change in a few years anyways. Like I said, I already know of a few other fandom wiki’s out there (even if they are fandom specific), the wiki format is free and easy to use, and a lot of fans out there are willing to put in the time.
Fanfiction.net wasn’t the first multifandom archive out there when it first came into being, it just, for whatever reason, was able to make itself more popular than the others. The same is going to happen I think to fandom wiki’s. It may be your friends that is able to make that jump ahead to being *the* fandom wiki, or it could be the OTWs, or it could be someone else who makes it. Only time will tell, but I don’t think the *second* to make a wiki should have to take any more heat than the third or fourth or five hundredth, just as I don’t think anyone really has a right to be upset when another is made. And I think fandom can only benefit from having more than one option available to them, if only to see how different people cover the same thing to get varying opinions.

I think they'd only benefit from reaching out to different corners of fandom.
Except, they *are* reaching out to different corners of fandom. Sure the main board is composted of a group of friends, but if you’re going to be starting something as big as this, you have to have people helping you whom you can *trust* (I know because I’ve tried to do smaller things with people I don’t know, and they always seem to fall apart because you find you can’t trust certain people to do what needs to be done). Naomi is reaching out to everyone now, and recruiting them to be volunteers. Anyone can be a member, and any member can run for a position on the board. And the board is being set up in such a way that there’s always enough trusted people who know their way to get things done incase someone who can’t pull their weight is elected. It’s just a necessity for the first board to be composed of people that don’t have time to be tested.

Also, I think that the OTW hasn’t really started it’s campaign to bring users over yet, since they haven’t anything to bring them over *to*. They’re probably going to be doing a lot more reaching out once they actually have things up and running, and that’s more when people from all corners get a chance to have an impact. When there’s actually something to impact.

Look at all the outcry there has been so far that certain people aren’t being represented properly, when the OTW hasn’t really put anything out to represent fandom. All they have so far is a rather sparse webpage with a few mission statements, what really matters is how inclusive their products are.

I think from a strictly marketing/PR standpoint they have a long way to go, I think they may be overambitious
That's one of my fears, especially since they seem to be taking on a lot of projects at the moment, of which, incidentally enough, the wiki is probably the easiest to start, since I'm assuming they're not going to re-write/start from scratch the wiki code like they are the archive and social networking codes. I must say, I hope they're not starting from scratch on the social networking code. The LJ code is open source, they could probably get farther faster if they just did a re-write of it to add a few things fans would like to see. People *like* LJ as a social network, unlike a lot of the current archive codes which don't fill their needs as much (not that a lot of fandom doesn't dislike it, but I'm assuming, perhaps erroneously, that that's because it's a social network and not so much because it's Live Journal).
There's also the fact that the longer it takes for the behind the scenes people coding to make their stuff, the more people kind of forget about the project, and it can be forgotten.

I think they're treading in dangerous waters re: legal issues. But at the same time I think a lot of their issues stem from gaps in knowledge that anyone could be expected to have.
I realize that there haven't been nearly as many C&Ds in fandom lately as their used to be, at least not to fic writers, I know vids get taken down all the time (but mostly just from places like YouTube), but I still hate the idea of how naked we are sitting here. We currently have no options but to give in if the PTB tell us to. I really wish that the legal aspect of the OTW wasn't what was non-fandom people are latching onto. So many don't seem to realize it's a *defense* fund, there in case TPTB come knocking on *our* door, not so that we can go knock on theirs.
And as bad as it is to say, even if we went out and *lost* any legal footing we had, I don't think it would kill fandom (cripple us? Definitely, but kill? Look at all the downloading that goes on, they haven't been stopped and it's *definitely* illegal) but it would make it a lot less fun.

See why I don't mind when people but in? It gives me a chance to not shut up :P

I knew about the already existing wiki, and I can't say I've found it particularly useful/interesting - I think it really needs to be expanded, and there needs to be more momentum behind it. However, this may be a bias, because there are a lot of very popular fandoms (HP, Buffy, etc) that I have never had anything to do with, so it's possible that the wiki represents them better than it does the fandoms I am involved with. Interest in these kinds of things can vary widely within and between different fandoms.

Even if it's acknowledged that they aren't within fandom, those outside fandom won't see it that way, and people are afraid of being misrepresented.

Very possibly. But if this is the case, then I agree with you - rather than bitching about it, why not form alliances and make compromises (to me, this is what life is about)? But I think that fandom has always had a tendency to divide into camps (and this is not a fandom thing per se - it's a human thing) - just look at the wank that has been generated in SGA, for example, about pairings! - and it should be expected that some people will take very strong stances against any fandom endeavour ever, not just projects like OTW. This kind of diversity I respect, although I do not respect it when things get pointlessly nasty.

the OTW is fairly new and can only work on so many projects at once, but I think they'd be open to more once they get their first few things done.

I agree. I think it is unfair to expect many things from OTW right away. Like any project - fandom or otherwise - things get more complex and offer more breadth and depth over time.

I knew about the already existing wiki, and I can't say I've found it particularly useful/interesting
Well, to be fair, a wiki is only as good as what it's members put into it. If it was created by a close group of due South, SPN, and HP fans, then yeah, they're going to have to work on getting other fans to do their bit.

rather than bitching about it, why not form alliances and make compromises (to me, this is what life is about)?
*nods* And to be fair, I think it's going to be impossible to accurately represent fandom. I think it's impossible to accurately represent just the SGA fandom, because fandom means something different to each person, but we can still do our best to make it as accurate as possible. I mean, they want to record our history (which I think is rather important due to the nature of the internet; what's here one day is gone the next), you can never be perfect with history, there are always biases, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't *try*. And if you're so worried about being misrepresented, then *speak*up*.

But I think that fandom has always had a tendency to divide into camps (and this is not a fandom thing per se - it's a human thing)
So true. Although you're right, it's nice when we can keep the wank out of it. It's also nice when people are actually willing to *listen* if they are engaging in a discussion. OMG, when reading the 600+ post on

scalzi's post there were some people I just wanted to yell "Shut up already and give up. You are obviously not listening to person A and instead choose to continue saying the exact same points, in more and more derogatory ways!" And it was seen on both sides. Although I think the ones I noticed the most was a couple guys on the anti-side, and one guy on the pro-side who the other pro people didn't realize were on their side and kept trying to stomp on his comments.

I agree. I think it is unfair to expect many things from OTW right away. Like any project - fandom or otherwise - things get more complex and offer more breadth and depth over time.
Actually, I was quite surprised to see that they hope to have the archive up by this summer. That's not a lot of time to develop a huge program like an archive, especially not if they put some of the features in that people were talking about in the early days. Colour me impressed. Although, I'm slightly surprised that they're planning on opening the archive first, the academic journal last, and the wiki sometime in the "first half of 2008". I would think a wiki would be rather easy to set up in the first place. I mean, it's open source software. They might want to design a pretty skin and set up some rules, but I would have thought it could go up almost immediately. Also, it would be a good way of keeping fans interested in the project, because there's something *everyone* can work on, and they can start right away.

a wiki is only as good as what it's members put into it.

Agreed. And this is my point!

I think it's going to be impossible to accurately represent fandom

I agree. But it is a collective (or a series of intersecting collectives), and I think some communication needs to happen to make the diverse aspects of it accessible. But I think there are always people who would rather bitch about how something is exclusive, than enter into dialogue.

If you haven't already done so, go have a look at

metafandom for the last week. I just counted links to 10 different posts just from last Monday onward. Sunday 16th has almost that many just for the one day. There a particularly interesting post from the last couple of days from someone heavily involved with bandom for many years and it raises some intriguing questions about inclusiveness/exclusiveness and differing perceptions of RPF from the perspective of the differing legalities.

For myself, I'm probably ambivelant. For a project that was born from the concept of An Archive Of Our Own, it seems to have become somewhat mired in the legalities and academia of fandom rather than being a central contact point for new fanfic fans in order to keep them from the greedy mitts of Fan_Lib! *g*

I can understand the idea of wanting a defence fund, but the jury is still well out on whether we could actually win a case on Fair Use grounds and I'm not sure I want to find out for sure one way or the other.

Maybe it is because I'm an old school fanfic fan from the days of zines, but I'd much rather stay under the radar and rely somewhat on fans and the owners of the various copyrights/trademarks keeping each other at arms length. Let sleeping dogs lie, so to speak.

We have a lot to gain if we win a Fair Use court case, but we also have a lot to lose if we lose such a case. The thought of copyright owners having more than Cease & Desist Orders as their arsenel scares the hell out of me. *nods* A writer/archive/website receives a C&D, they close that site down and start again elsewhere. There are plenty of places to hide on the internet. But a writer etc who is forced to pay damages or at the least the copyright holder's legal costs? That is an entirely different matter. And I'm not sure just how much a Legal Defence Fund is going to be able to cover such a fan. Not if we end up with one loss and then a run-on of other copyright holders who feel it is worth it after a precedent is set.

go have a look at metafandom
Cool, thanks. I always seem to forget about

metafandom, unless I see people in a discussion stating where they came from. I remember almost keeling over the one time I was linked.

Maybe it is because I'm an old school fanfic fan from the days of zines, but I'd much rather stay under the radar and rely somewhat on fans and the owners of the various copyrights/trademarks keeping each other at arms length. Let sleeping dogs lie, so to speak.
Yeah, I can understand that. But I look at the history of the C&Ds handed out to fandom, especially in the early years, and I... really don't want that to happen to me. I don't want to have to roll over because today is the day they decided to acknowledge what we do (because they already *know*. I would like a way to be able at least stand a chance if I say "no". And maybe it's because my form of fanworks is one that is constantly getting C&Ds and having our content pulled down, where as fanfic is left more alone, but I want it to *stop*. I want the protection that the OTW is fighting for. And if we lose, well, I'd be willing to go back to those days where everything is behind locked doors, whatnot, it'd suck, but I think it's worth the risk.

I've been busy reading the new comments to this post before I knuckled under to answer you... *g*

A legal defence fund is going to have to look at a number of issues. And you hit one of them on the head in your reply to me. Vidding. That is another whole new ballgame when we are talking about C&D's. And I think it is a situation that OTW would be mad to use as their first test case. It is only my personal opinion, but I think that, on a sliding scale, vidding is actually the least defencible of our fannish works.

RPF/RPS is probably, from my limited thought on the subject, the most easily defencible as long as it is clearly marked as fiction. That would hopefully get around the libel/slander angle. There is usually no copyrighted material to be poached from, and RPF writers would hopefully only need to watch out for anyone who has trademarked their public persona. KISS would be a good example of this. Write about the band members, rather than their created characters, and libel/slander is probably all you'd need to worry about.

FPF/fanfic would be the middle ground, with fic based on material no longer copyrighted being safe, and a test case needed to decide if fanfic based on a copyrighted property is transformative enough to avoid being derivative.

But vidding, much as I love the artform, has a problem in that it uses a soundtrack with little change beyond cropping, and uses existing images to tell a new story. It is in the same medium as the source material, and is therefore harder to argue it is sufficiently transformative. Personally, I think the remixing of images is enough to make it transformative, but I think it is the music that is going to do us in!

cont...

So I think that there is a very good chance that, even with a legal defence fund, vidding may not be any closer to being protected. If I was running the fund, I'd prefer to test fanfic first and hopefully get a feel for the lay of the land. If we lose a test case for fanfic, we'd probably be dead in the water re a test case for vidding.

Argh! Talk about getting off track! *g*

Well, when I spoke to the OTW at their live chat, it seems that they're not going to take on any big corporations, they're going to wait until someone takes them on first. Since I'm pretty sure the fic archive is going to be the first possibly objectionable thing up, I have a feeling that's where it's going to come up first. But who knows.

They also said that they're not going to be going to court if they don't think they can win. They might have to give into TPTB demands.

I've been busy reading the new comments to this post before I knuckled under to answer you... *g*
:) Find anything interesting?
Sorry it took me forever to respond, I got swept up in the holidays....

Vidding. That is another whole new ballgame when we are talking about C&D's. And I think it is a situation that OTW would be mad to use as their first test case. It is only my personal opinion, but I think that, on a sliding scale, vidding is actually the least defencible of our fannish works.
I think on the transformative/fair use side, vidding is actually better off than fic. Have you seen this video? The real problem comes with the music we use. Because we use songs in their entirety, we're open to problems from the music owners.

RPF/RPS is probably, from my limited thought on the subject, the most easily defencible as long as it is clearly marked as fiction.
Yeah, I don't actually know that much about RPF/RPS period, but from what I understand they're pretty safe, in fact, I was linked not too long ago to a site that sells RPS books. Also, if things like the Enquirer can exsist and try and pass their crap off as possible truth, then I think fans are safe :P

FPF/fanfic would be the middle ground, with fic based on material no longer copyrighted being safe, and a test case needed to decide if fanfic based on a copyrighted property is transformative enough to avoid being derivative.
It gets me how people can write fanfics based on things that are no longer/have never been copyrighted, and have it published and be considered "real writing" or be considered "respectable authors" just because the original author has been dead for more than 70 years. The one that annoys me the most would be Anne Rice and her little tantrum over fans writing fanfiction for her books, but her recent book is basically bible fanfiction.

Hmm, ok, I want to add a little as to my reasons for supporting the legal defense fund. I wasn't going to, but now I can't stop thinking about it, and I'll sleep better if I just get it out. :P

I think the days of "staying under the radar" are kind of over, or will be soon. Fandoms like Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, have made if much more main stream. We're not so much flying under the radar as we're in the radar but pretending to be rocks. Things like Fanlib, especially put us there, since they're going to the copyright holders and getting them to donate prizes, while fandlib makes money off of fic writers. Things like the offical stargate novels are written by fandom writers. Things like the official fanfic contests are going on over at certain offical webpages (I think CBS and Battlestar Galactica were mentioned, but I'm not positive on that).
Now those things may sound positive, and they are to some extent, but once we show our hand to them, and they accept certain ones, then they are well on the way to rejecting others. They don't want us to have complete freedom with their characters and concepts.

This can really impact all areas of fandom that aren't gen or established ship. Slash? Good luck. Kink? No way in hell.

There's also the fact that copyrights themselves are rapidly morphing from their original conception. Thanks big businesses like Disney, copyright is now life +70 years. They can now trademark characters which are protected *forever*.

Look at things like the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. The copyright holder can come in and demand you remove content from the internet without court approval. This has already been abused so that legitimate content has been removed, sometimes *against* the copyright holder.

In Canada the big shots are currently trying to change our copyright laws so much so, that you can be violating copyright if you listen to something *the wrong way*. You can get fined or jail time, even if you *paid* for the product. (Actually, I think someone made the comment, that under the proposed law, you can technically be violating the copyright terms if you get up to go to the bathroom during a commercial break).

If we don't take a stand and say no, the big shot copyright holders will take *everything* and what little protection we had will be gone. We, the people (not just the fans, but definitely the fans as well) need to join in a united front and *stop* them, because they won't stop on their own. We need to be ready for when they do finally start dragging us into court and make sure that it's on our terms, that we get a say.

Oh, I agree! The days of being under the radar are long gone, if they ever existed at all. There are tales from the 1980's of the 'sacred' Grandfather clause' which was why there has never been a test case for fanfic. Why it has only ever been C&D's as long as no profit was being made. I very carefully said profit being made rather than money changing hands, as the existance of zines was politely ignored by most copyright holders.

I've been googling 'grandfather clause fanfiction' and not getting much, but from memory: I think there was a legal opinion going around zine fandom in the earlyish days that if a copyright holder was going to go after a zine producer they would have to explain in court why they had chosen that particular zine producer and not the numerous zine producers before them. So, in effect, the copyright owners of Star Trek would have had to go and prosecute the zine producers in chronalogical order if they took such a case to court.

Not sure how viable that stance was, but it was something that had been bandied around fandom for years. So yes, we've never really been below the radar, but both sides have used that as a polite fiction to cover the situation.

With zines being very much on the wane and the transparently free fanfic economy of the internet, I suspect that polite fiction became even more entrenched. With so much fanfic out there, it is interesting that there is still not a test case. Yes, fans do succumb to C&D's, but it is interesting that no copyright holder (and there are some vitriolic ones out there) has yet taken it beyond a C&D.

I don't think a grandfather clause, as you're explaining it, would really work. People try that with speeding tickets all the time (I wasn't the only one speeding! There were people going faster than me!). Also, a lot of the time, when a copyright holder goes after a zine, they'll go after all the zines they can find for their works.

With so much fanfic out there, it is interesting that there is still not a test case. Yes, fans do succumb to C&D's, but it is interesting that no copyright holder (and there are some vitriolic ones out there) has yet taken it beyond a C&D.
Well, unlike things like music downloading, fandom doesn't hurt the products. So the right holders aren't stupid enough to take it beyond C&Ds and fans, so far, haven't been stupid enough to not listen to the C&Ds.
That said, I still think we have a chance of winning if we do take it to court, and I think something like the OTW is a good group to do it, because they'll have the power of a large chunk of fandom behind them, rather than just being some disgruntled fan who decided not to give in, and tries to represent themselves.

I'd like a fan history wiki that is transparent, group owned (aka not owned by one person or persons + persons who are accountable and unlikely to wander off). I also like the idea of seeing more articles etc discussing and documenting women in fan history. A central archive would be a nice complement (not a replacement) to the thousands of existing archives. And of course having some legal assistance or legal direction is all good.

In short, what I like about OTW is that it is a large group, a bit more formal/professional than your typical fan endeavor, less likely to be taken over by one single person/group and well funded. And that is is not trying to be (and frankly never will be able to be) the exclusive owner of fannish works or history.

In short, a good start with lots of room for others to branch off and still do their own thins.

A central archive would be a nice complement (not a replacement) to the thousands of existing archives.
Agreed. I'm finding that there are quite a few people out there angry at the fact that the OTW is trying to replace them (there's been a rather long discussion in these comments with regards to the wiki) but don't see that really it's just an *addition*. The more resources and choice fans have, the more enjoyable fandom is.

In short, what I like about OTW is that it is a large group, a bit more formal/professional than your typical fan endeavor, less likely to be taken over by one single person/group and well funded.
*nods* They've said they're going to be taking a lot on, and if it were just one person, I wouldn't expect it to happen, or that it would fall apart rather quickly if it did. And the professional aspect gives me hope that they'll be able to keep a bit more of a cool head, and not have things devolve into something that has fandom_wank gleeful.

I've been following OTW since it's first glimmer in a few BNFs personal journals and, while I'm ambiguous about the tenor of the organization, I'm pretty positive about several of the things they're trying to do.

I'm very interested in a central archive, so long as there's no cost to join and they do not have some sort of 'quality' restrictions (as 'quality' in fandom is mindbogglingly controversial, plus I don't think that sort of restriction has a place in fandom).

I suspect that the first time they are actually faced with a lawsuit, they will be very, very surprised and I remain quite concerned about the information that one of their lawyers has a very bad odor in fandom as a suspected/known plagarist. Personally, I belive that OTW is right - that fanfiction and other fanworks fall under the fair use clause of copyright law so, yes, I would support them if they were taken to court.

However: there are several fan wikis out there including: http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php/Main_Page which has been in existence for several years but is still struggling to get its existence out. I thing the owner has some trouble with ... objectivity however she is committed to allowing the wiki to be edited, created and modified to expand the range of opinions. She is also, I think, a bandom/rockfic (not sure of the terminology here) fan and not at all personally involved in fanfiction, particularly LJ - so her knowledge of that sort of material is limited. She is, in fact, putting out a call for fandom to help her with the wiki, to expand the information, do fact checking and so on. There are others, I belive theres a spesifc fanwiki.

(pardon the happy new year spelling ;/)

I just wanted to step in to correct some things. :)

I'm a Star Trek fan. I came into the Star Trek fandom on-line around 1994 on Prodigy's message boards and when Prodigy first began allowing access to the web. I was actively involved in the Babylon 5 fandom from 1996 to 1999 or so. During that same period, I was also involved with the Sailor Moon and X-Files fandom. In 2000, I was on staff at FanFiction.Net with Steven Savage. I ran Writers University based on the site. (I could get more into my fandom pedigree, but erf. Like all fans involved heavily, it gets loads of wanky.) I'm currently semi-actively in the CSI fandom and following large bits of other fandoms.

I just look like I'm in bandom because, as an outside interest beyond my own fandom involvement, I've been interested in since I founded FanDomination.Net, where I found a lot of my administrative work dealt with Good Charlotte, AFI, Mest fans. Because of that, I immersed myself in that community. I made contacts with other bandfic communities like RockFic. Through these, I became obsessed with bandom... I've really, really, really spent way too much time researching that community's history.

That all said, I'm aware that I have bias issues. :/ I've taken steps to help alleviate that. They include Adding a Neutral Point of View Dispute header (http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php/Fanhistory.com:Neutral_point_of_view), (And I use it for articles when I spot them where I know I have issues. Most recently, this included the article on William Petersen.) explained where I am bias and what steps I am taking to fix that (http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php/User:Laura/Resolved) (And I've made sure others are editing those articles since I've posted that) and included some of the bias related fixing stuff on the Books to do list (http://www.fanhistory.com/index.php/Fanhistory.com:Books_to_do...).

The lack of user contributions is a problem. The solution has been to reach out, as widely as possible, to tell people about the wiki and ask for their help. As a result, traffic has been up. Fan History had over 23,000 unique visitors in December. We've been averaging around ten plus unique contributors a day. The feeling I have, based on discussion with other contributors, is that Fan History is about six months away from being able to self generate traffic and being utilized more widely.

There are a number of existing fandom related history projects out there that rock. There are also wiki related ones. http://directorium.org/Home is a fantastic wiki which could have been consulted and changed the scope of. http://wiki.fandomwank.com/ might be wanky but they have a really good basis of historical information that could be utilized. There are also a number of fandom specific wikis which deal with history: http://www.dariawiki.org/ , and http://creekfandom.wikispaces.com and http://swfanon.wikia.com/ are the ones that are pretty good starting places. Mary Ellen Curtin's Foresmutters Project is not a wiki but it is a pretty exhaustive fan history related projected. Comic fandom and science fiction fandom both have their own share of historians. http://www.fanac.org/ is one of the best fandom history projects out there. Good stuff. (Music fandom does not have the same historical bent as the other two. Anime is hit or miss. Their focus tends to be more oriented on the product history than on fandom itself and I'm really digressing.)

I'm very interested in a central archive, so long as there's no cost to join
From what I understand, the cost to join that has been mentioned is the cost to be a member at large of the OTW, and so you have a right to vote on the board, and has nothing to do with using their services.

I suspect that the first time they are actually faced with a lawsuit, they will be very, very surprised
I think fans in general have trouble understanding *why* anyone would want to slap us with a lawsuit, and any lawsuit is going to require specific legwork, but from my understanding, they're already preparing arguments to use in court.

She is, in fact, putting out a call for fandom to help her with the wiki, to expand the information, do fact checking and so on.
Yeah, one of her friends has been commenting on this thread, and I think the owner is feeling threatened by the OTW and their plans for a wiki (she actually made a post on the wiki saying she doesn't feel objective enough to edit articles about the OTW amoung other topics). A lot of the users of that wiki seem to feel that the OTW is infringing on their work, but I don't think that being the first to do something means that you're going to be the best at it. I mean it's been open for years, but only has about 7000 articles, and as you said only cover a few fandoms in depth (which makes it a rather useless tool if you go there with a specific question in mind).
That's not to say I don't think their site isn't important, but nothing can be completely representative, which is why I encourage having more than one place to go.

As someone who strongly believes that most, if not all, fanfiction is legal, I'm very excited about OTW. Whether or not we "need" a multifandom archive, it will be very nice to have that resource available -- an archive that is run by people who will not run scared at the first sight of takedown notices and the like. But you knew that already. :)

As someone who strongly believes that most, if not all, fanfiction is legal, I'm very excited about OTW. Whether or not we "need" a multifandom archive, it will be very nice to have that resource available
Ha, you sound a lot like me. I tend to think mostly about the legal side of things, and it's only as an after thought that I remember the archive part. I would enjoy having a big, well known multifandom archive that isn't ff.net though, for those times I have a one day desire to read fic from a fandom I'm not in, or one that's really small/rare.

I'd like a glossary, at least. Some kind of translation into plain English so people who don't speak tl;dr can understand what the hell they're talking about.

I would *kill* for a regularly updated glossary. I can't tell you the number of times I've had to look up net speak. Especially since so many of them are hard to put into context. I remember the first time I saw tl;dr. People were leaving that as their entire comment to something over on fandom_wank. How are you able to get "Too long; didn't read" from that if there's no real context to put it in? Luckily it was easily googleable, but when I first arrived in fandom, it took me over a year to learn what OTP stood for, and I would go on searches about once a month to try and find out.

I think the idea of OTW is a good one. They may not be doing everything as perfectly as some folks wish, but their intentions are good.

I have to say I agree with the opinions about not wanting the Powers That Be coming in and sweeping away everything fandom has - the idea of building some sort of defence against that is very heartening.

On the other hand, my ever-present cynical side wants to sit back and wait and see how things pan out.

They may not be doing everything as perfectly as some folks wish, but their intentions are good.
With fandom though, was that ever going to happen? What we want as a whole tends to contradict itself all over the place. *shakes head*
I agree though, they're trying, and we'll just have to wait and see how things turn out in the end.

I have to say I agree with the opinions about not wanting the Powers That Be coming in and sweeping away everything fandom has
That though honestly scares me. I mean, I've gone long periods of time without fandom since I've joined it, but the thought of never having the option of going back, or having to search so hard, and do everything in secrecy, with the thought that it could all be taken away again...? Totally unacceptable to me. :S

On the other hand, my ever-present cynical side wants to sit back and wait and see how things pan out.
Oh totally. That's kind of what I plan on doing. I'm supporting the OTW right now, but I won't be completely surprised if it doesn't pan out (or goes out in a blaze of glory).

Here via

metafandom. I am a lurker and only follow the news of OTW via

metafandom. To me, a archive which won't back up from vague threat at once is wonderful - I still remember when the move of LJ pushed so many authors to delete/put down/f-lock their work. It is a great strike to me. It will be great if there is a safe place to host and read the fannish stuff. A wiki which document the fandom culture will never be enough - I spends several months ignorant to the meaning of BNF. Now I am mostly an observer but I think OTW has potential.

Yeah, I hate how when something happens, so many things stop working, because suddenly people are deleting/locking/moving fics, so suddenly your list of links is somewhat useless, rec lists too.
I totally understand author's wanting to protect themselves, but I would like for fandom to have a chance to not need to deal with that kind of crap.

A wiki which document the fandom culture will never be enough
Yeah, there are far too many fannish terms, many of which are unique to single fandoms, or sub-cultures of fandom. Which is one of the reasons I was kind of surprised that many of the comments on this thread have been about whether the OTW should make a wiki since there's already one. I mean, one will *never* be enough.

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OTW = A Good Start, But Not The End All/Be All

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Metafandom Wanderer

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