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Question
So, I've spent most of the day reading up on what people are saying about the OTW are saying. Mostly from non-fandom people, and it's kind of making me want to shoot things, but I was wondering:
What do you think about the OTW? Would you like an archive? A written fannish history? A wiki (OMG, I can't tell you how much I'd like a wiki for fandom, although I can see it being vandalized a lot)? Do you think it's a good idea to have a legal defense fund? If the OTW were ever to go to court, would you support them?
I'm planning on making a post sometime about how I feel about it, but I'm really curious as to what other people on my flist think about it. I think so far only one person on my flist has really written about it, but I spent a couple months away so could have totally missed something.
Also, I am having a bitch of a time working on a mysql database, any one know enough about setting up eFiction to want to help?
What do you think about the OTW? Would you like an archive? A written fannish history? A wiki (OMG, I can't tell you how much I'd like a wiki for fandom, although I can see it being vandalized a lot)? Do you think it's a good idea to have a legal defense fund? If the OTW were ever to go to court, would you support them?
I'm planning on making a post sometime about how I feel about it, but I'm really curious as to what other people on my flist think about it. I think so far only one person on my flist has really written about it, but I spent a couple months away so could have totally missed something.
Also, I am having a bitch of a time working on a mysql database, any one know enough about setting up eFiction to want to help?
Re: OTW Part 1b
Mmhm.
There are two reasons I'm not totally averse to judging OTW at least in part by its supporters:
a) as time has gone on, actual OTW staff have responded to my comments less and less - the last issue I raised, no official OTW people said a thing. If they're okay handing what really boils down to customer service complaints over to customers with no complaints, I look at that the same as implicit approval of what those customers are saying to the complainer.
b) there are really two approaches one can take to being judged: idealistic (no one SHOULD judge, so I'll behave as if no one DOES judge) and realistic (people are judgmental, how can I adjust my behavior to be judged in the proper light? [hopefully with the stipulation "as well as maintain my integrity", but God knows that doesn't always happen). I'm more on the realistic side, and I'm sure an advocacy group focused on a horribly misinterpreted pastime is going to be judged. And people will judge based on the members even when they don't speak in any official capacity - if someone's interactions with OTW members have all been bad, it may be fair for them to look into the organization and see how condoned that negative behavior is, but most people wouldn't bother. OTW members I've met are assholes = OTW are assholes, in many people's minds.
The logic is as flawed as judging fandom as a whole based on the OMG I ROTEZ THIS @ 2 AM ON A SUGAR HI!!!!!!!!!1111 crowd, but it happens. And the response to that is generally "um, we're not all sugar-crazed insomniac grammar-hating kiddies, really" - but OTW's not distancing itself from the "your feelings of exclusion are only valid if you can prove them to me" people.
Hmm, in some ways, I think that's exactly what they're *trying* to do, even if they're not outright saying it.
Tone doesn't come across well on the internet, heh. You're right - but what I meant to say was more...snooty. "No one else can do this right, so here we come to save fandom from itself".
Which I'm sure they're not trying to do. But a lot of the time that's how the OTW effort reads to me.
Re: OTW Part 1b
Not that I'm condoning it, but, I think they've become a little overwhelemed by fandoms response, and they're taking the time to give official responses, rather than just have volunteers go out and give what they think is the correct answer. I know that at last night's chat, they would take a while to answer because all the mod type people had a seperate chat going on where they discussed what to say.
When you're online, people are used to getting answers immediately. They don't want to have to wait, because a day in internet time is about a week in real time. But since the OTW is a corporation, and since they are what outsiders are going to be seeing if they take a look at fandom, they have to be very careful to act like one, and make sure that all it's volunteers aren't going out and giving conflicting information.
I still think that they'd be better off though, writing up a better FAQ, and having more chances for people to openly ask questions.
what I meant to say was more...snooty. "No one else can do this right, so here we come to save fandom from itself".
Hmm, I suppose, but I more saw it as, "People always complian about how the resources we have don't fit fandom properly, or we're shocked when they don't take into account fandoms needs. Some people try to fix this, but it's too much for one person alone, so here's a big group with a lot of support that will stand a better chance of fixing this."
Re: OTW Part 1b
Oh yeah, I get why...but at the same time, I think if they see a discussion getting heated, or going on for quite a while, at least stepping in with a little "interesting point, we're discussing this and I'll be back with a real answer later" note would be better than nothing.
I still think that they'd be better off though, writing up a better FAQ, and having more chances for people to openly ask questions.
Definitely. I think the chat was a step in the right direction (and I hate that I couldn't make it for more than a few minutes at a time) and I'm glad they scrapped the original plan for a room that only allowed 25 people at a time; I think the TOS/TOU focus group is a step that way, too. I know opening things up to community scrutiny can be problematic in a getting-things-done sense, but with the way fandom operates, taking community input at every opportunity is probably the best PR move they could make.
Where OTW runs into trouble, really, is they have to please two worlds at once - the "outside" world, and fandom. And both worlds require different things (for example, the board using their legal names and not disclosing their fannish identities - the legal names are what the outside world wants, but especially in the wake of FanLib, fandom's more concerned with proof of fannish involvement...so how do they please both and still maintain their privacy?), and every time those requirements conflict and they decide one way or the other, they're risking pissing off one side.
So what it really comes down to is deciding which side to come down on for which issue - like, for advocacy work they should probably favor the outside world more, for tools like the archive it's obviously more important to please fandom.
It's an interesting tightrope to walk, and one I'm not sure I envy ;)
Hmm, I suppose, but I more saw it as, "People always complian about how the resources we have don't fit fandom properly, or we're shocked when they don't take into account fandoms needs. Some people try to fix this, but it's too much for one person alone, so here's a big group with a lot of support that will stand a better chance of fixing this."
It's really all down to interpretation, innit. I'm not arguing (and have never intended to argue) the people seeing OTW in a positive light are wrong (and no OTW-thoughts post pisses me off more than those that try to say the dissenters are wrong because they disagree with the OP - to that end, and considering the person who linked me here has a bad habit of linking me to the THE WHINERS ARE WRONG BECAUSE OTW ROOLZ posts, this post was rather refreshing). I think what they need to succeed, in the end, will be a healthy mix - the positive encouragement, and the whiners like me finding weak spots. And sometimes the supporters will miss glaring weak spots in their excitement, and sometimes the dissenters will find problems where there are none, because no one's perfect...but if the supporters get upset that the dissenters exist and drive them all away, someday one of those weak spots that got missed will bring down OTW. And if the dissenters drive away the supporters, I doubt there's anyone on Earth who wouldn't get fed up with the constant nitpicking and start wondering why the Hell they even bother.
Re: OTW Part 1b
I think though, that while certainly in some cases they’d be able to do that without any problems, it’s a little too much to ask for the board to go out searching for discussions all over the internet and try and answer questions. I mean, have a look at
Instead what they’re doing is providing people with a place to come to them with such questions. Despite the fact that people seem to be really confused over the OTW and their stance on things, the chat last week had very few people there. I don’t think there was ever more than 30 people in the room, and about 6 of those were from the OTW.
Where OTW runs into trouble, really, is they have to please two worlds at once - the "outside" world, and fandom.
Yeah, that’s definitely going to be their big problem, and at the moment I kind of feel that they’re moving in more of a RL mode than a fannish one, but I think if they’re a legal company they have to. That’s why they’re using real names instead of fannish ones, because it’s required by law, but I also think that most people know their fannish names as well, at least if they’re a person who would know their fannish names already.
Personally, I think that working in a RL mode is more important at the moment, and I just wish that fandom would realize that they need to. If we are ever taken to court, it’s really important that the OTW can be looked at and seen as a professional organization and not as a group of squeeing fan girls.
considering the person who linked me here has a bad habit of linking me to the THE WHINERS ARE WRONG BECAUSE OTW ROOLZ posts, this post was rather refreshing).
Well like I said, I have my gut reaction, but I see that it’s not everyone’s reaction, so want more info (and am too lazy to read the 50 million posts about it right away, I’m working on it though, about 10 down only 49,999,950 to go :P)
I think what they need to succeed, in the end, will be a healthy mix - the positive encouragement, and the whiners like me finding weak spots.
And I’m not saying that people shouldn’t point out weak spots, but I must admit, I’m getting rather tired of people not giving them a chance to work things out. It seems that some people want things to be done perfectly or not at all. That if they aren’t recognized in their own unique way, then the OTW shouldn’t even try.
Every group has it’s bumps, and hurdles to get over, the OTW just needs to be given a chance to try.
Re: OTW Part 1b
Personally, I think that working in a RL mode is more important at the moment, and I just wish that fandom would realize that they need to.
Part of me says "right on!" to this, because yeah - squeeing fangirls don't really win hearts and minds.
But part of me...well, really, it's that space between "people shouldn't judge, so I'll act as if they don't", and "people do judge, so I'll adjust my behavior". Fandom judges, fandom wanks, fandom pries and questions and pokes at things and demands to know exactly who's trying to capitalize on them. Fandom is unlikely to shut up and just accept OTW knows what they're doing, whether they should or not, particularly if it looks like OTW's painting a big bullseye.
You are right, really - if OTW expects to deal with Real World things, it must cater to what the Real World expects. But consider the fandomers who don't want fandom to be adapted to the Real World, who will think that's what OTW's after - they're not gonna listen to "but but but the Real World".
Every group has it’s bumps, and hurdles to get over, the OTW just needs to be given a chance to try.
Most definitely.
Re: OTW Part 1b
Ahh, I was thinking back to the chat where someone complained that the OTW is based too much on LJ, and that they should move off of LJ sice so many people are pissed with it :P
when I talked about them not stepping into discussions I was specifically talking about discussions in the actual
Yeah, I was a little surprised that they had a chat instead of just opening a thread on the LJ. But I think part of it is having everyone sit down at once to talk about this stuff, and also, I think the same questions are being asked over and over again, even when they do answer. Which is why I think they need a better FAQ.
But part of me...well, really, it's that space between "people shouldn't judge, so I'll act as if they don't", and "people do judge, so I'll adjust my behavior". Fandom judges, fandom wanks, fandom pries and questions and pokes at things and demands to know exactly who's trying to capitalize on them. Fandom is unlikely to shut up and just accept OTW knows what they're doing, whether they should or not, particularly if it looks like OTW's painting a big bullseye.
Yeah, but in the vein, since there are always going to be people demanding information, no matter how open they are; people saying it sucks, no matter how good they are (and people loving it no matter how bad they are) I can see why they might choose the path that gets things *done* rather than having the most open communication, since it'll work out more if they can *show* us they can do this rather than *tell* us.