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Question
So, I've spent most of the day reading up on what people are saying about the OTW are saying. Mostly from non-fandom people, and it's kind of making me want to shoot things, but I was wondering:
What do you think about the OTW? Would you like an archive? A written fannish history? A wiki (OMG, I can't tell you how much I'd like a wiki for fandom, although I can see it being vandalized a lot)? Do you think it's a good idea to have a legal defense fund? If the OTW were ever to go to court, would you support them?
I'm planning on making a post sometime about how I feel about it, but I'm really curious as to what other people on my flist think about it. I think so far only one person on my flist has really written about it, but I spent a couple months away so could have totally missed something.
Also, I am having a bitch of a time working on a mysql database, any one know enough about setting up eFiction to want to help?
What do you think about the OTW? Would you like an archive? A written fannish history? A wiki (OMG, I can't tell you how much I'd like a wiki for fandom, although I can see it being vandalized a lot)? Do you think it's a good idea to have a legal defense fund? If the OTW were ever to go to court, would you support them?
I'm planning on making a post sometime about how I feel about it, but I'm really curious as to what other people on my flist think about it. I think so far only one person on my flist has really written about it, but I spent a couple months away so could have totally missed something.
Also, I am having a bitch of a time working on a mysql database, any one know enough about setting up eFiction to want to help?
Re: OTW Part 1
No, I don't mind, feel free to jump right in. If I wanted to keep "outsiders" out, I'd lock the post. :P
And I meant what I said above, your comment is the one that made me stop and think "Huh, not all fans are behind this" and that's why I choose it to quote, and not any of the others, Sidebar would have been a much better example of what we were discussing.
Looking back, it seems silly that I would assume that all fans would like the idea (How long have I been in fandom? No one agrees about *anything*), it's just I'm one of those people that has to actually stop and think about something before other opinions occur to me. I'm rather short sighted like that.
Anyways....
Is a totally fair response. I actually have participated... t just to point out that I do participate, and I'm not just running around bitching everywhere but to the people who could make changes based on my bitching :)
That's good to know. It does bother me a bit how some people are saying they aren't being included, but aren't trying to be included either. Or those say they don't *want* to be included to the OTW should just fuck off.
BTW, how has the response to your "bitching" been? (Links are fine, since you said you had made some metafandom posts, which I will probably get around to *some time* when the holidays aren't taking up all my time). I'm curious as to how the OTW is handling things, since, for the most part, I've only had a chance to read a few people's reactions to all this.
I totally get this, and my issue isn't so much with what they actually have/haven't done than with their attitude. And I should add my view of their attitude is perhaps unfairly colored by the amount of negative interactions I've had with non-"staff"(board/committee members) supporters when I've raised questions/criticisms.
OMG, isn't *that* the truth. It seems the supporters always seem to give the "thing" a bad name... which I guess is one of the arguments made against fandom when it comes to legal ground. We may encourage each other, but outsiders just want to take a big step back.
But, to me, and to a few people I know, so far they've come across as very "we're going to do all these things the right way."
Hmm, in some ways, I think that's exactly what they're *trying* to do, even if they're not outright saying it. I mean the idea was based on "This is what we have, and it's not working, so we're going to make our own." The fans on LJ feel that a lot. Most of my friends online are anti-ff.net, because of all their stupid rules (the rating rule being a big one, since we read/write slash), the poor ratio of good fics compared to bad fics, and, well, the mentality of some of the people over there (not to say it's a great one over here). That environment doesn't work for us. Neither do a lot of the alternatives (is Quizilla *really* considered a fanfic archive?), even livejournal, where a lot of us currently reside. LJ always kind of sucked as an archive, but now it's beginning to fail as a safe haven for fandom too.
The archives out there are failing fans *here* and AAOOO was the answer to that. It's just sort of grown since then.
As for the wiki, I don't think it's a reflection spefically on that site. I personally had never heard of it before, I'll definitely use it now that it's been pointed out to me though. I noticed that my fandom doesn't seem to be very represented on there, so I signed up for an account, and will see about fixing that.
Cont...
Re: OTW Part 1a
My problem with saying that is...I don't necessarily want to be included (like I said, I haven't decided yet). But if they're misrepresenting my segments of fandom, I'm going to speak up as long as they claim to be representing those segments.
IMO, they should cut RPF out of their legal/advocacy stuff (it's on much firmer legal ground than FPF, for the most part, so it doesn't NEED to be included there) - welcome it on the archive and in the wiki, but so far I'm not seeing much understanding of the legal issues RPF does face, and I'm...undecided on whether I think they seem willing to learn. They listened to us whiners about "media fandom != all of fandom", but I'm still not convinced they're really listening, you know? Like, they changed that one thing but from where I'm sitting they're still making mistakes that say to me they missed our broader point, that RPF and media-based fandom aren't the same thing and can't be accurately represented using solely the terminology of one of those.
I've been told by an OTW committee member OTW isn't so much about "LOOK AT MEEEEE" as "if you're already looking this way, lemme turn on the light so you can see right"...but regardless, by their nature they'll be getting attention from outside sources, and if they're presenting inaccurate information about fandom, are they really serving their purpose well?
So whether or not I ultimately want to be involved with the organization, I don't think it's unfair of me to correct misinformation when I see it. I do think, however, there's a difference between correcting misinfo and bitching, and yeah, people whose comments boil down to "how dare you not do this this and this exactly my way, not that I'd be interested even if you did" would probably benefit from just taking their ball and going home.
BTW, how has the response to your "bitching" been? (Links are fine, since you said you had made some metafandom posts, which I will probably get around to *some time* when the holidays aren't taking up all my time). I'm curious as to how the OTW is handling things, since, for the most part, I've only had a chance to read a few people's reactions to all this.
From the actual OTW staff, it's generally been...pleasant, but somewhat dry and corporate. Lots of somewhat-meaningless PR babble and "I'll get back to you later with an official response". Which isn't all bad - it feels odd in a fannish space to be interacted with on a business level, but it certainly could be worse.
While I'm aware it's somewhat unfair of me to judge the organization by its supporters, I would like to mention the response from many OTWers has been...well, I mentioned in a friend's LJ my big problem with the OTWers I've had the more frustrating arguments with is it never seems to be enough to say "this language feels exclusive; were I coming upon this for the first time today, 'x' would leave me thinking I wasn't included", people expect justification, factual backup, fandom credentials, links to usage of x with intention to exclude, on and on and on to the point it feels less like an argument about the inclusivity of x and more like me on trial - as if my exclusion is somehow my fault.
I'll get you links...at some point, lol. I think I have a list saved somewhere :)
Re: OTW Part 1a
...hmm, it looks like I was thinking faster than I was typing when I wrote that, what I actually *meant* to say was the people who say they don't want to be part of the OTW and the OTW should fuck off (not that I think the people who don't want to be included should fuck off, that kind of goes against what I was saying before...).
But if they're misrepresenting my segments of fandom, I'm going to speak up as long as they claim to be representing those segments.
Yeah, I can't really claim to beleive that the OTW totally knows all of fandom. The part that really gets me is that they say fandom is a female thing. And I can see where you'd get that impression if you're a slasher, but there are plenty of guys in fandom, they just move in different circles.
IMO, they should cut RPF out of their legal/advocacy stuff
Wow, is that ever a bad idea.
Can you imagine if the OTW went out there saying "We're here to help should there be legal troubles... unless you're into RPF, then you're SOL"
I think people really misinterpret the legal side of things. When they say they are proactive on the legal side of things, they mean they're doing the research, and building a case now in the hopes that they never have to go to court. And they're going to be taking things one problem at a time. They're not out to revolutionize copyright law. When I asked at the meeting last night, they even said they might not be able to take some cases on, depending on the chances, resources and people involved. The last thing they want is to go in and *lose*.
Someone also asked last night about how they plan to treat RPS on their legal side, but I'll admit, I don't really remember the answer, but it should be in the transcript once they post it.
Re: OTW Part 1a
Haha, I hate when I do that.
Wow, is that ever a bad idea.
Can you imagine if the OTW went out there saying "We're here to help should there be legal troubles... unless you're into RPF, then you're SOL"
I think it depends how they approach it. There are a couple reasons I think OTW would benefit from cutting RPF out of legal/advocacy work:
- the culture of RPFandom where it doesn't have a community that comes mainly from media fandom is different than the culture of media fandom (this is a hugely broad statement, I know, just liberally apply "for the most part"s all over, lol). To me, misrepresenting that culture - as they have done several times - is worse than saying "At the moment, we don't feel our knowledge of RPFandom is extensive enough to represent it properly in our advocacy work. RPF will always be welcome in our archive, and RPFers are of course welcome in the Organization, but while we work with members of RPF communities to broaden our understanding, we will refrain from advocating something we don't feel we understand fully."
- The legal issues surrounding RPF are very different from those concerning media-based fandom, and I haven't seen any evidence they understand those. I know they're not after changing laws or being revolutionary, but if they're offering any sort of legal help I'd feel more comfortable if I felt they understood what the specific issues were. And again, it's all in how they handle it. "Of course we want to help any and every one in fandom who may run into legal trouble, but we offer this help with the admittance that, being mainly media fandomers ourselves, our knowledge of the legalities surrounding RPF is somewhat limited. We are always working to educate ourselves further, and we will absolutely not turn away anyone looking for help, but we want you to be aware RPF is not our area of expertise."
So not necessarily cutting it out fully (although, really, I'd be far more comfortable if they DID cut RPF out of their advocacy work because already I've seen bloggers referring to fandom-as-a-whole with "media fandom", and ARGH), but even just admitting their limitations would make me a happy camper.
Re: OTW Part 1a
Hi! My question, shockingly, is also on
the legal side of things.
first, i want to applaud you guys for
having a big-tent approach to fannish work. it seems
like it would be easy to say, "we're here for fic
because we think we can win with fic, but the vidders
are on their own," etc.
however, RPS in particular seems to have
its own set of legal issues, yet i've only seen
comment so far on the fanfic/fanvid side of things.
are you guys working on specific
messages/defenses for RPS/RPF?
I will start by saying that probably we
will set up a chat with Rebecca Tushnet, our head of
Legal, who can give the really correct answers to all
the legal questions
well, from a CommRel perspective, as well.
not being a lawyer, I will say that my
understanding from our discussions is that RPS/RPF are
on much more solid and understood ground
legally speaking
with respect to libel?
we definitely *are* concerned about them
in terms of caring about RPS and RPF
and wanting to protect them too
libel/defamation/slander you are totally
safe as long as it is clear the work is fiction
in my nonlawyer understanding!
right.
are there other legal aspects for RPF
that you are specifically concerned about?
since RPF pushes a good number of people's
squick buttons pretty hard, is OTW going to work on a
"message" about why it's legit?
and why it's included?
let me actually answer this more
generally -- we are not looking to judge squick/squee,
period. that is, we have zero desire as an org to get
into the business of deciding what is "worthy" or
"good" and don't think it is our place
we're going to include everything that
our legal team tells us we can that does not risk
getting us sent to jail :>
ha ha, awesome. thanks.
(Anything else, Lottelita?)
not at the moment!
Re: OTW Part 1a
"At the moment, we don't feel our knowledge of RPFandom is extensive enough to represent it properly in our advocacy work. RPF will always be welcome in our archive, and RPFers are of course welcome in the Organization, but while we work with members of RPF communities to broaden our understanding, we will refrain from advocating something we don't feel we understand fully."
Well, the impression that I got from the chat is that they are acknowledging that they don't know all the legal ins about outs involved with RPF, but they don’t know all the legal ins and outs of FPF either, but they are going to invest time into learning those ins and outs in case anything ever comes of it in court.
I also got the impression that if it does ever go to court, they’re going to do whatever to win that specific case, and they’re not going to try and make it about *all* fanfiction. It might be used as precedence in a case later, but they’re not going to try and mash all fandom in as one thing.
if they're offering any sort of legal help I'd feel more comfortable if I felt they understood what the specific issues were. And again, it's all in how they handle it. "Of course we want to help any and every one in fandom who may run into legal trouble, but we offer this help with the admittance that, being mainly media fandomers ourselves, our knowledge of the legalities surrounding RPF is somewhat limited. We are always working to educate ourselves further, and we will absolutely not turn away anyone looking for help, but we want you to be aware RPF is not our area of expertise."
Except… they’d end up saying that an awful lot.
So far, most of the focus has been on fanfic, media fanfic if you’d like, but they’re offering their services for all fanworks, this includes things like vids, and artwork made, it includes fan videos (scripted acts) and manips. It includes book fandoms, TV fandoms, movie fandoms and the RP fandom (and probably more that I can’t think of at the moment).
The main lawyer they have on the board is American. What if it’s an Australian that needs legal help? Are they to put a warning up that they only know American law?
The purpose of the legal side of things is to *build* a case, any knowledge that they bring to the table now is just a bonus. And they want to develop a network of contacts so they can have people to call on in case something is beyond their current abilities, but that being said, if the lawyers that are on the board are professionals, then I would think they’d be professional enough to take what’s given to them. Each case is going to need it’s own research, each case is probably going to need outside help, it’s just a matter of where to go for that outside help.
So yeah, I don’t think the RPF writer is much less represented than a Canadian vid maker (like me).
Re: OTW Part 1a
Mm, I think that section of the chat was good to hear.
they’re not going to try and mash all fandom in as one thing
But by claiming they intend to use "transformative" as a defense for RPF, they're doing just that. Rather than ask about it - and I know multiple people have given them the name of someone who's done a ton of legal RPF research - they chose to assume and just mash it in there. I suppose time will tell if that changes, but that's where my feeling they're not necessarily willing to learn comes from - times where they have chosen to assume rather than learn.
The main lawyer they have on the board is American. What if it’s an Australian that needs legal help? Are they to put a warning up that they only know American law?
Point taken.
So yeah, I don’t think the RPF writer is much less represented than a Canadian vid maker (like me).
In essence, you're right. But from a language sense, they've been very careful to keep their language inclusive of all types of fanworks - ficcing, vidding, art, etc. - while the first time anyone said "um, your language isn't so much making with the including RPF" the reaction was...less than good. But, yeah, you're right.
Re: OTW Part 1a
(Anonymous) 2008-01-03 01:18 pm (UTC)(link)Re: OTW Part 1a
Re: OTW Part 1b
Mmhm.
There are two reasons I'm not totally averse to judging OTW at least in part by its supporters:
a) as time has gone on, actual OTW staff have responded to my comments less and less - the last issue I raised, no official OTW people said a thing. If they're okay handing what really boils down to customer service complaints over to customers with no complaints, I look at that the same as implicit approval of what those customers are saying to the complainer.
b) there are really two approaches one can take to being judged: idealistic (no one SHOULD judge, so I'll behave as if no one DOES judge) and realistic (people are judgmental, how can I adjust my behavior to be judged in the proper light? [hopefully with the stipulation "as well as maintain my integrity", but God knows that doesn't always happen). I'm more on the realistic side, and I'm sure an advocacy group focused on a horribly misinterpreted pastime is going to be judged. And people will judge based on the members even when they don't speak in any official capacity - if someone's interactions with OTW members have all been bad, it may be fair for them to look into the organization and see how condoned that negative behavior is, but most people wouldn't bother. OTW members I've met are assholes = OTW are assholes, in many people's minds.
The logic is as flawed as judging fandom as a whole based on the OMG I ROTEZ THIS @ 2 AM ON A SUGAR HI!!!!!!!!!1111 crowd, but it happens. And the response to that is generally "um, we're not all sugar-crazed insomniac grammar-hating kiddies, really" - but OTW's not distancing itself from the "your feelings of exclusion are only valid if you can prove them to me" people.
Hmm, in some ways, I think that's exactly what they're *trying* to do, even if they're not outright saying it.
Tone doesn't come across well on the internet, heh. You're right - but what I meant to say was more...snooty. "No one else can do this right, so here we come to save fandom from itself".
Which I'm sure they're not trying to do. But a lot of the time that's how the OTW effort reads to me.
Re: OTW Part 1b
Not that I'm condoning it, but, I think they've become a little overwhelemed by fandoms response, and they're taking the time to give official responses, rather than just have volunteers go out and give what they think is the correct answer. I know that at last night's chat, they would take a while to answer because all the mod type people had a seperate chat going on where they discussed what to say.
When you're online, people are used to getting answers immediately. They don't want to have to wait, because a day in internet time is about a week in real time. But since the OTW is a corporation, and since they are what outsiders are going to be seeing if they take a look at fandom, they have to be very careful to act like one, and make sure that all it's volunteers aren't going out and giving conflicting information.
I still think that they'd be better off though, writing up a better FAQ, and having more chances for people to openly ask questions.
what I meant to say was more...snooty. "No one else can do this right, so here we come to save fandom from itself".
Hmm, I suppose, but I more saw it as, "People always complian about how the resources we have don't fit fandom properly, or we're shocked when they don't take into account fandoms needs. Some people try to fix this, but it's too much for one person alone, so here's a big group with a lot of support that will stand a better chance of fixing this."
Re: OTW Part 1b
Oh yeah, I get why...but at the same time, I think if they see a discussion getting heated, or going on for quite a while, at least stepping in with a little "interesting point, we're discussing this and I'll be back with a real answer later" note would be better than nothing.
I still think that they'd be better off though, writing up a better FAQ, and having more chances for people to openly ask questions.
Definitely. I think the chat was a step in the right direction (and I hate that I couldn't make it for more than a few minutes at a time) and I'm glad they scrapped the original plan for a room that only allowed 25 people at a time; I think the TOS/TOU focus group is a step that way, too. I know opening things up to community scrutiny can be problematic in a getting-things-done sense, but with the way fandom operates, taking community input at every opportunity is probably the best PR move they could make.
Where OTW runs into trouble, really, is they have to please two worlds at once - the "outside" world, and fandom. And both worlds require different things (for example, the board using their legal names and not disclosing their fannish identities - the legal names are what the outside world wants, but especially in the wake of FanLib, fandom's more concerned with proof of fannish involvement...so how do they please both and still maintain their privacy?), and every time those requirements conflict and they decide one way or the other, they're risking pissing off one side.
So what it really comes down to is deciding which side to come down on for which issue - like, for advocacy work they should probably favor the outside world more, for tools like the archive it's obviously more important to please fandom.
It's an interesting tightrope to walk, and one I'm not sure I envy ;)
Hmm, I suppose, but I more saw it as, "People always complian about how the resources we have don't fit fandom properly, or we're shocked when they don't take into account fandoms needs. Some people try to fix this, but it's too much for one person alone, so here's a big group with a lot of support that will stand a better chance of fixing this."
It's really all down to interpretation, innit. I'm not arguing (and have never intended to argue) the people seeing OTW in a positive light are wrong (and no OTW-thoughts post pisses me off more than those that try to say the dissenters are wrong because they disagree with the OP - to that end, and considering the person who linked me here has a bad habit of linking me to the THE WHINERS ARE WRONG BECAUSE OTW ROOLZ posts, this post was rather refreshing). I think what they need to succeed, in the end, will be a healthy mix - the positive encouragement, and the whiners like me finding weak spots. And sometimes the supporters will miss glaring weak spots in their excitement, and sometimes the dissenters will find problems where there are none, because no one's perfect...but if the supporters get upset that the dissenters exist and drive them all away, someday one of those weak spots that got missed will bring down OTW. And if the dissenters drive away the supporters, I doubt there's anyone on Earth who wouldn't get fed up with the constant nitpicking and start wondering why the Hell they even bother.
Re: OTW Part 1b
I think though, that while certainly in some cases they’d be able to do that without any problems, it’s a little too much to ask for the board to go out searching for discussions all over the internet and try and answer questions. I mean, have a look at
Instead what they’re doing is providing people with a place to come to them with such questions. Despite the fact that people seem to be really confused over the OTW and their stance on things, the chat last week had very few people there. I don’t think there was ever more than 30 people in the room, and about 6 of those were from the OTW.
Where OTW runs into trouble, really, is they have to please two worlds at once - the "outside" world, and fandom.
Yeah, that’s definitely going to be their big problem, and at the moment I kind of feel that they’re moving in more of a RL mode than a fannish one, but I think if they’re a legal company they have to. That’s why they’re using real names instead of fannish ones, because it’s required by law, but I also think that most people know their fannish names as well, at least if they’re a person who would know their fannish names already.
Personally, I think that working in a RL mode is more important at the moment, and I just wish that fandom would realize that they need to. If we are ever taken to court, it’s really important that the OTW can be looked at and seen as a professional organization and not as a group of squeeing fan girls.
considering the person who linked me here has a bad habit of linking me to the THE WHINERS ARE WRONG BECAUSE OTW ROOLZ posts, this post was rather refreshing).
Well like I said, I have my gut reaction, but I see that it’s not everyone’s reaction, so want more info (and am too lazy to read the 50 million posts about it right away, I’m working on it though, about 10 down only 49,999,950 to go :P)
I think what they need to succeed, in the end, will be a healthy mix - the positive encouragement, and the whiners like me finding weak spots.
And I’m not saying that people shouldn’t point out weak spots, but I must admit, I’m getting rather tired of people not giving them a chance to work things out. It seems that some people want things to be done perfectly or not at all. That if they aren’t recognized in their own unique way, then the OTW shouldn’t even try.
Every group has it’s bumps, and hurdles to get over, the OTW just needs to be given a chance to try.
Re: OTW Part 1b
Personally, I think that working in a RL mode is more important at the moment, and I just wish that fandom would realize that they need to.
Part of me says "right on!" to this, because yeah - squeeing fangirls don't really win hearts and minds.
But part of me...well, really, it's that space between "people shouldn't judge, so I'll act as if they don't", and "people do judge, so I'll adjust my behavior". Fandom judges, fandom wanks, fandom pries and questions and pokes at things and demands to know exactly who's trying to capitalize on them. Fandom is unlikely to shut up and just accept OTW knows what they're doing, whether they should or not, particularly if it looks like OTW's painting a big bullseye.
You are right, really - if OTW expects to deal with Real World things, it must cater to what the Real World expects. But consider the fandomers who don't want fandom to be adapted to the Real World, who will think that's what OTW's after - they're not gonna listen to "but but but the Real World".
Every group has it’s bumps, and hurdles to get over, the OTW just needs to be given a chance to try.
Most definitely.
Re: OTW Part 1b
Ahh, I was thinking back to the chat where someone complained that the OTW is based too much on LJ, and that they should move off of LJ sice so many people are pissed with it :P
when I talked about them not stepping into discussions I was specifically talking about discussions in the actual
Yeah, I was a little surprised that they had a chat instead of just opening a thread on the LJ. But I think part of it is having everyone sit down at once to talk about this stuff, and also, I think the same questions are being asked over and over again, even when they do answer. Which is why I think they need a better FAQ.
But part of me...well, really, it's that space between "people shouldn't judge, so I'll act as if they don't", and "people do judge, so I'll adjust my behavior". Fandom judges, fandom wanks, fandom pries and questions and pokes at things and demands to know exactly who's trying to capitalize on them. Fandom is unlikely to shut up and just accept OTW knows what they're doing, whether they should or not, particularly if it looks like OTW's painting a big bullseye.
Yeah, but in the vein, since there are always going to be people demanding information, no matter how open they are; people saying it sucks, no matter how good they are (and people loving it no matter how bad they are) I can see why they might choose the path that gets things *done* rather than having the most open communication, since it'll work out more if they can *show* us they can do this rather than *tell* us.