paraka | Question

Question

So, I've spent most of the day reading up on what people are saying about the OTW are saying. Mostly from non-fandom people, and it's kind of making me want to shoot things, but I was wondering:

What do you think about the OTW? Would you like an archive? A written fannish history? A wiki (OMG, I can't tell you how much I'd like a wiki for fandom, although I can see it being vandalized a lot)? Do you think it's a good idea to have a legal defense fund? If the OTW were ever to go to court, would you support them?

I'm planning on making a post sometime about how I feel about it, but I'm really curious as to what other people on my flist think about it. I think so far only one person on my flist has really written about it, but I spent a couple months away so could have totally missed something.

Also, I am having a bitch of a time working on a mysql database, any one know enough about setting up eFiction to want to help?

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

No help on eFiction, I'm afraid! But my thoughts on OTW, I can show you them!

I've said this around a little bit - mostly, I'm ambivalent about OTW. I understand the reasoning behind the project, and I definitely understand the argument about women's work being undervalued, and exploited, and the way that an OTW archive is a counter to to such potential exploitation. I appreciate their recognition of fandom diversity and the 'community' nature of much of fandom; I also appreciate their apparent transparency.

However, I am uninterested in fandom and academia, and I don't feel the need to access a central archive at the moment. This might change - as I said, I'm ambivalent, and I would prefer to see how things unfold over time.

With regards to the legal defense fund - I don't know. Part of this, I feel, is about legitimising fanworks (although I don't think they actually use the term legitimising), and I've never felt the urge to have fandom - which is a hobby to me - viewed as 'legitimate' on a societal level (but I'm not saying that fandom is something to be ashamed about/kept secret either).

The wiki project could be interesting/useful.

Basically, I don't find that OTW 'speaks' to me at this point in time. But I get the sense that it is coming (at least, in part) from a section of fandom that I've never really had a lot to do with. I think that the discussions around OTW demonstrates that there is a lot of diversity in fandom, which is something that I like.

I should also say that I do not enjoy seeing the really nasty responses to OTW - I think some people need to realise that even if it's not for them, they don't have to get vicious about it -- instead, they should get over it, and accept that because fandom is so diverse, OTW will work for some people, not work for others, and leave others still with mixed feelings.

No help on eFiction, I'm afraid! But my thoughts on OTW, I can show you them!
That's ok, I was really more interested in your thoughts anyway :)

I definitely understand the argument about women's work being undervalued, and exploited, and the way that an OTW archive is a counter to to such potential exploitation.
I haven't actually run across that much on the "Women's" side of this, mstly I've read stuff from the view of outsiders looking in on fandom, which is very teeth-gritty. Do you have links to any of these discussions? I'll admit, I was kind of surprised to see that they were saying fandom is mostly women. I don't necessarily agree that *fandom* is mostly women, but will concede that the fanfic aspect is mostly women.

However, I am uninterested in fandom and academia, and I don't feel the need to access a central archive at the moment.
Yeah, I'm not sure about the academia bit. I *like* how think-y fandom is, but sometimes we're a little too high-brow, especially when our common interest is squeeing over hot space heroes fighting alien vampires and robots.
As for the archive, I'm kinda meh about it. Sometimes I'm really excited about it, but other times I think about it and realize I probably won't use it that much. At least not while I'm in big fandoms like SGA where I have a 40 page to-read list of stuff I got off of my flist alone.
On the one hand, it would be nice to have a central archive that isn't neutered like ff.net is (if they had any more rules about what can and cannot be posted they wouldn't have any fic), but archives are notorious for having a lot of bad fic. On the other hand, it's nice to have a starting place that's well organized and has a large readership. Most of the people I know that post to ff.net do so because of the large readership, but still dislike the site. Also, if OTW is able to set up all that they want, it'll be a nice place for newbies to find first. Large multifandom archives are also nice if you get the sudden urge to read in an obscure fandom. *shrugs*

With regards to the legal defense fund - I don't know. Part of this, I feel, is about legitimising fanworks (although I don't think they actually use the term legitimising), and I've never felt the urge to have fandom - which is a hobby to me - viewed as 'legitimate' on a societal level
The legal defense fund is probably what I'm most excited about. I would hate it if suddenly TPTB decided to shut us down (and it has happened in the past). People spend so much time working on fandom, to have someone from the outside come in and say we can't makes me so angry. Also, to not have to worry about legal ramifications would be really nice. It would be nice to have an option other than roll over when TPTB come to tell us to.
But like you, I don't really care about what the outside thinks. In fact, I kind of like that not everyone knows what fandom is. I like being able to tell people that fandom is a hobby of mine, and not have them automatically think of bad explicit HP slash or other things that being put into the limelight would bring. I don't care if we're never acknowledged by mainstream culture, I just don't want to work in fandom with the fear of it being taken away from me.

Cont...

The wiki project could be interesting/useful.
After I made this post, I read that there is already one here. I haven't really looked at it yet, but I book marked it. I really hope that they have a lot of the fandom/net acronyms on it. I hate it when people say things like DJSIEC, and I have no friggin' clue what the heck they're talking about. It took me about a year to find out what OTP stood for, and for the longest time I thought FTW was a polite/sneaky way of saying WTF (since it's backwards). Sometimes the context just isn't enough.

I should also say that I do not enjoy seeing the really nasty responses to OTW - I think some people need to realise that even if it's not for them, they don't have to get vicious about it -- instead, they should get over it, and accept that because fandom is so diverse, OTW will work for some people, not work for others, and leave others still with mixed feelings
I think that stems from the fact that the OTW is trying to some extent to be a representative front. Even if it's acknowledged that they aren't within fandom, those outside fandom won't see it that way, and people are afraid of being misrepresented. The person that left the link to the wiki commented that:

OTW suffers from the fact that the majority (if not the entirety) of the upper level (board +committees), as well as most of the supporters, are coming from extremely similar fannish backgrounds. Female-dominated media-based fandom (I should note that not all fanwork-producing fandom is “media fandom”, many of those of us who write RPF reject that label) focused on LiveJournal.

Not that any of those are bad things. But the view and experiences at the core of OTW are a small fraction of overall fannish views and experiences, and as such they tend to misunderstand/misrepresent segments of fandom they’re not used to. Not necessarily with any ill intent - although I do question why their response to “this doesn’t apply to my experience” or “this excludes me” tends to be “no it’s not, because I say so” rather than an attempt to understand - but it happens all the same.

And so as someone who falls outside their comfort zone, I have one main issue: if, in advocating for legitimacy, they succeed only in legitimizing that which they are currently presenting as fandom, those who are misrepresented are still out in the cold.

I’m also troubled by their disregard for anything outside their paradigm; their contempt and/or ignorance of existing projects (I still have yet to get a good explanation why they intend to create a wiki, when one is already in existence, and fairly successful) has me thinking they are only out to legitimize fandom on their terms, done their way.

It was that comment that really made me make this post, because I kind of assumed that most of fandom either liked the idea or were indifferent to it. To see people complain about it...
Of course my response to this person is, if they don't think they're section of fandom is being represented, then join in and represent it.
Also, the OTW is fairly new and can only work on so many projects at once, but I think they'd be open to more once they get their first few things done.

If you haven't already done so, go have a look at

metafandom for the last week. I just counted links to 10 different posts just from last Monday onward. Sunday 16th has almost that many just for the one day. There a particularly interesting post from the last couple of days from someone heavily involved with bandom for many years and it raises some intriguing questions about inclusiveness/exclusiveness and differing perceptions of RPF from the perspective of the differing legalities.

For myself, I'm probably ambivelant. For a project that was born from the concept of An Archive Of Our Own, it seems to have become somewhat mired in the legalities and academia of fandom rather than being a central contact point for new fanfic fans in order to keep them from the greedy mitts of Fan_Lib! *g*

I can understand the idea of wanting a defence fund, but the jury is still well out on whether we could actually win a case on Fair Use grounds and I'm not sure I want to find out for sure one way or the other.

Maybe it is because I'm an old school fanfic fan from the days of zines, but I'd much rather stay under the radar and rely somewhat on fans and the owners of the various copyrights/trademarks keeping each other at arms length. Let sleeping dogs lie, so to speak.

We have a lot to gain if we win a Fair Use court case, but we also have a lot to lose if we lose such a case. The thought of copyright owners having more than Cease & Desist Orders as their arsenel scares the hell out of me. *nods* A writer/archive/website receives a C&D, they close that site down and start again elsewhere. There are plenty of places to hide on the internet. But a writer etc who is forced to pay damages or at the least the copyright holder's legal costs? That is an entirely different matter. And I'm not sure just how much a Legal Defence Fund is going to be able to cover such a fan. Not if we end up with one loss and then a run-on of other copyright holders who feel it is worth it after a precedent is set.

*waves* A friend pointed me to this post, I hope you don't mind me hopping into the discussion here :)

That comment you quoted was mine - I chose to use my real name rather than my fannish pseud to avoid gender confusion. And this:

Of course my response to this person is, if they don't think they're section of fandom is being represented, then join in and represent it.

Is a totally fair response. I actually have participated - I follow the community, I post comments when I have issues, I've written a couple metafandom-linked crit posts and welcomed discourse there. Which isn't to say "how dare you question my particpation, person who has no idea who I am", but just to point out that I do participate, and I'm not just running around bitching everywhere but to the people who could make changes based on my bitching :)

Also, the OTW is fairly new and can only work on so many projects at once, but I think they'd be open to more once they get their first few things done.<./i>

I totally get this, and my issue isn't so much with what they actually have/haven't done than with their attitude. And I should add my view of their attitude is perhaps unfairly colored by the amount of negative interactions I've had with non-"staff"(board/committee members) supporters when I've raised questions/criticisms.

But, to me, and to a few people I know, so far they've come across as very "we're going to do all these things the right way." Which I'm sure they're not doing on purpose, but...well, as an example, one of my very first problems with OTW was their announcement of a goal to create a fan history wiki, with no acknowledgement of one that already exists. And when I brought up the existing FanHistory wiki (http://www.fanhistory.com), the responses ranged from politely dismissive to downright vitriolic. And to see something I know has had hours and hours and hours of work put into it dismissed and insulted and heavily criticized (my favorites were the criticisms about incompleteness and factual error - it's a wiki, anyone is welcome to fix any error they find) and drug through the mud because it wasn't the right fan who owned it...I have a very hard time looking past that to see the good intentions.

I should point out I'm still not decided one way or the other how I feel about OTW. I think from a strictly marketing/PR standpoint they have a long way to go, I think they may be overambitious, I think they're treading in dangerous waters re: legal issues. But at the same time I think a lot of their issues stem from gaps in knowledge that anyone could be expected to have.

Time will tell if that "We'll do ___ the right way" attitude is a misconception, or a reality that will stand in the way of filling those gaps.

(/end butting in)

waves* A friend pointed me to this post, I hope you don't mind me hopping into the discussion here :)
No, I don't mind, feel free to jump right in. If I wanted to keep "outsiders" out, I'd lock the post. :P

And I meant what I said above, your comment is the one that made me stop and think "Huh, not all fans are behind this" and that's why I choose it to quote, and not any of the others, Sidebar would have been a much better example of what we were discussing.
Looking back, it seems silly that I would assume that all fans would like the idea (How long have I been in fandom? No one agrees about *anything*), it's just I'm one of those people that has to actually stop and think about something before other opinions occur to me. I'm rather short sighted like that.
Anyways....

Is a totally fair response. I actually have participated... t just to point out that I do participate, and I'm not just running around bitching everywhere but to the people who could make changes based on my bitching :)
That's good to know. It does bother me a bit how some people are saying they aren't being included, but aren't trying to be included either. Or those say they don't *want* to be included to the OTW should just fuck off.
BTW, how has the response to your "bitching" been? (Links are fine, since you said you had made some metafandom posts, which I will probably get around to *some time* when the holidays aren't taking up all my time). I'm curious as to how the OTW is handling things, since, for the most part, I've only had a chance to read a few people's reactions to all this.

I totally get this, and my issue isn't so much with what they actually have/haven't done than with their attitude. And I should add my view of their attitude is perhaps unfairly colored by the amount of negative interactions I've had with non-"staff"(board/committee members) supporters when I've raised questions/criticisms.
OMG, isn't *that* the truth. It seems the supporters always seem to give the "thing" a bad name... which I guess is one of the arguments made against fandom when it comes to legal ground. We may encourage each other, but outsiders just want to take a big step back.

But, to me, and to a few people I know, so far they've come across as very "we're going to do all these things the right way."
Hmm, in some ways, I think that's exactly what they're *trying* to do, even if they're not outright saying it. I mean the idea was based on "This is what we have, and it's not working, so we're going to make our own." The fans on LJ feel that a lot. Most of my friends online are anti-ff.net, because of all their stupid rules (the rating rule being a big one, since we read/write slash), the poor ratio of good fics compared to bad fics, and, well, the mentality of some of the people over there (not to say it's a great one over here). That environment doesn't work for us. Neither do a lot of the alternatives (is Quizilla *really* considered a fanfic archive?), even livejournal, where a lot of us currently reside. LJ always kind of sucked as an archive, but now it's beginning to fail as a safe haven for fandom too.
The archives out there are failing fans *here* and AAOOO was the answer to that. It's just sort of grown since then.

As for the wiki, I don't think it's a reflection spefically on that site. I personally had never heard of it before, I'll definitely use it now that it's been pointed out to me though. I noticed that my fandom doesn't seem to be very represented on there, so I signed up for an account, and will see about fixing that.

Cont...

Other people though... part of it could be that they'd rather have someone they know and trust run it (enough fan sites out there have started out by good intentioned people who then reach the end of their rope and close it down. I noticed that there's a not on the wiki against that, but still, in general), but it could also be that a wiki is only as good as the people putting effort into it, and they feel that the OTW will have a big enough following to make their wiki better, simply because that's something that they could help with and say they were an active part of OTW.
... hmm, I'm doing a really bad job explaining in words what I mean here. Really, bad. It's... I also think that the fact that something already exists isn't enough of an excuse to the members of the OTW not to make another one, because there are already things out there for all of the projects they'd like to make. There are already quite a few multi fandom archives, that many people totally love, and feel insulted that anyone would try to replace, there are already social networking sites out there (so, so many), I'm sure there's already groups out there trying to document fannish history (I know there was a fairly comprehensive list of the HP fandom in the earlier years out there somewhere), and I *know* there are already people out there looking into the legalities of fandom in general. Just because something already exists doesn't mean that the OTW can't make another. And even if the other alternative out there is a *good* one, the OTW wants to present an "all in one" feel for newcomers to fandom, and to fandom as a whole. Someone who's been in fandom for a while, or who has taken the time already to look for a wiki might see the one you linked to, but many others have no idea of it's existence. They want to have one that's right there in a central location.
And I don't think the OTW is going to go looking for affiliates, at least not anywhere near the beginning, because it opens up a whole *other* can of worms (why did you choose one over the other? And the fans/users of the "other" might come to resent the OTW for not choosing them, while they still have to deal with the one they choose, and all the expectations of the existing users, as well and their rules and how they fit into the OTWs rules). I do have to wonder though, if the owner of that wiki were to speak to the OTW and offer up her wiki to be the OTW wiki if they wouldn't take her up on it, I don't know, but it does sound like a much easier solution to me.

I should point out I'm still not decided one way or the other how I feel about OTW.
Yeah, I was decided, but it really does depend on how things turn out. They can still screw us up yet :P

Gah! I just can't shut up it seems, sorry for the hugely long repsonse....

I think from a strictly marketing/PR standpoint they have a long way to go, I think they may be overambitious
That's one of my fears, especially since they seem to be taking on a lot of projects at the moment, of which, incidentally enough, the wiki is probably the easiest to start, since I'm assuming they're not going to re-write/start from scratch the wiki code like they are the archive and social networking codes. I must say, I hope they're not starting from scratch on the social networking code. The LJ code is open source, they could probably get farther faster if they just did a re-write of it to add a few things fans would like to see. People *like* LJ as a social network, unlike a lot of the current archive codes which don't fill their needs as much (not that a lot of fandom doesn't dislike it, but I'm assuming, perhaps erroneously, that that's because it's a social network and not so much because it's Live Journal).
There's also the fact that the longer it takes for the behind the scenes people coding to make their stuff, the more people kind of forget about the project, and it can be forgotten.

I think they're treading in dangerous waters re: legal issues. But at the same time I think a lot of their issues stem from gaps in knowledge that anyone could be expected to have.
I realize that there haven't been nearly as many C&Ds in fandom lately as their used to be, at least not to fic writers, I know vids get taken down all the time (but mostly just from places like YouTube), but I still hate the idea of how naked we are sitting here. We currently have no options but to give in if the PTB tell us to. I really wish that the legal aspect of the OTW wasn't what was non-fandom people are latching onto. So many don't seem to realize it's a *defense* fund, there in case TPTB come knocking on *our* door, not so that we can go knock on theirs.
And as bad as it is to say, even if we went out and *lost* any legal footing we had, I don't think it would kill fandom (cripple us? Definitely, but kill? Look at all the downloading that goes on, they haven't been stopped and it's *definitely* illegal) but it would make it a lot less fun.

See why I don't mind when people but in? It gives me a chance to not shut up :P

I think your thoughts on OTW are very positive, which is really nice to read.

Also, to not have to worry about legal ramifications would be really nice. It would be nice to have an option other than roll over when TPTB come to tell us to.

Would the defense fund support the individual author? Or the right to write fanfiction? I would like to have more clarification, but I think at this point, we can't get that - and this is one of the reason that I haven't taken a firm stance on OTW - I like to wait and see. This doesn't just apply to OTW - it applies to my approach to life in general!

But, I do have to admit that I feel a little cynical about the legal defense fund, and the potential weight that it could reasonably be expected to have.

Re: discussions on OTW - I can't remember specific links at this point, because they've been things I've run across through flist, and sometimes metafandom. But, the list of metafandom links to OTW discussion is here:
http://del.icio.us/metafandom/otw

I knew about the already existing wiki, and I can't say I've found it particularly useful/interesting - I think it really needs to be expanded, and there needs to be more momentum behind it. However, this may be a bias, because there are a lot of very popular fandoms (HP, Buffy, etc) that I have never had anything to do with, so it's possible that the wiki represents them better than it does the fandoms I am involved with. Interest in these kinds of things can vary widely within and between different fandoms.

Even if it's acknowledged that they aren't within fandom, those outside fandom won't see it that way, and people are afraid of being misrepresented.

Very possibly. But if this is the case, then I agree with you - rather than bitching about it, why not form alliances and make compromises (to me, this is what life is about)? But I think that fandom has always had a tendency to divide into camps (and this is not a fandom thing per se - it's a human thing) - just look at the wank that has been generated in SGA, for example, about pairings! - and it should be expected that some people will take very strong stances against any fandom endeavour ever, not just projects like OTW. This kind of diversity I respect, although I do not respect it when things get pointlessly nasty.

the OTW is fairly new and can only work on so many projects at once, but I think they'd be open to more once they get their first few things done.

I agree. I think it is unfair to expect many things from OTW right away. Like any project - fandom or otherwise - things get more complex and offer more breadth and depth over time.

I think your thoughts on OTW are very positive, which is really nice to read.
:P Maybe I'm just naive or haven't read enough about everything yet, but yeah, I'm positive about it. About the only downside I can see is if TPTB get freaked out by their legal stance, in which case, yeah things can go bad, but I don't think they're going to be lobbying to change anything, and instead are more going to do the research for a court battle now, and wait until they come to us, in which case, they've already come to us, so somethings going down already.

Would the defense fund support the individual author? Or the right to write fanfiction? I would like to have more clarification
Yeah, I just finished reading someones post saying that in the OTWs mission statements they only refer to fanworks, but I'd assume that if the fanwork isn't illegal, they can't attack the author (can they? I really don't know for sure). Also, I was just reading their site and they say This help will not be limited to those fans or projects directly connected with OTW. So yeah, my interpretation of that is, if *I* were to suddenly get in legal trouble for my fanworks, I can appeal to them for help, and they will at least consider helping me, regardless of whether the fanwork appears on their site or not.

I feel a little cynical about the legal defense fund, and the potential weight that it could reasonably be expected to have.
I do feel very strongly that the legal defense fund is a good thing. I'm not sure how good their argument about fair use is, but, if/when they go to court, I would support it, because I don't want to have to take this lying down. I think that if fandom got behind them, we could raise the money so that we're not forced out of court for money reasons, but actually, one of my concerns is that they might rely too much on volunteers for the court case. I know the board member who is a lawyer specializes in copy right, but still....

the list of metafandom links to OTW discussion is here
Cool! Thanks.

I knew about the already existing wiki, and I can't say I've found it particularly useful/interesting
Well, to be fair, a wiki is only as good as what it's members put into it. If it was created by a close group of due South, SPN, and HP fans, then yeah, they're going to have to work on getting other fans to do their bit.

rather than bitching about it, why not form alliances and make compromises (to me, this is what life is about)?
*nods* And to be fair, I think it's going to be impossible to accurately represent fandom. I think it's impossible to accurately represent just the SGA fandom, because fandom means something different to each person, but we can still do our best to make it as accurate as possible. I mean, they want to record our history (which I think is rather important due to the nature of the internet; what's here one day is gone the next), you can never be perfect with history, there are always biases, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't *try*. And if you're so worried about being misrepresented, then *speak*up*.

But I think that fandom has always had a tendency to divide into camps (and this is not a fandom thing per se - it's a human thing)
So true. Although you're right, it's nice when we can keep the wank out of it. It's also nice when people are actually willing to *listen* if they are engaging in a discussion. OMG, when reading the 600+ post on

scalzi's post there were some people I just wanted to yell "Shut up already and give up. You are obviously not listening to person A and instead choose to continue saying the exact same points, in more and more derogatory ways!" And it was seen on both sides. Although I think the ones I noticed the most was a couple guys on the anti-side, and one guy on the pro-side who the other pro people didn't realize were on their side and kept trying to stomp on his comments.

I agree. I think it is unfair to expect many things from OTW right away. Like any project - fandom or otherwise - things get more complex and offer more breadth and depth over time.
Actually, I was quite surprised to see that they hope to have the archive up by this summer. That's not a lot of time to develop a huge program like an archive, especially not if they put some of the features in that people were talking about in the early days. Colour me impressed. Although, I'm slightly surprised that they're planning on opening the archive first, the academic journal last, and the wiki sometime in the "first half of 2008". I would think a wiki would be rather easy to set up in the first place. I mean, it's open source software. They might want to design a pretty skin and set up some rules, but I would have thought it could go up almost immediately. Also, it would be a good way of keeping fans interested in the project, because there's something *everyone* can work on, and they can start right away.

go have a look at metafandom
Cool, thanks. I always seem to forget about

metafandom, unless I see people in a discussion stating where they came from. I remember almost keeling over the one time I was linked.

Maybe it is because I'm an old school fanfic fan from the days of zines, but I'd much rather stay under the radar and rely somewhat on fans and the owners of the various copyrights/trademarks keeping each other at arms length. Let sleeping dogs lie, so to speak.
Yeah, I can understand that. But I look at the history of the C&Ds handed out to fandom, especially in the early years, and I... really don't want that to happen to me. I don't want to have to roll over because today is the day they decided to acknowledge what we do (because they already *know*. I would like a way to be able at least stand a chance if I say "no". And maybe it's because my form of fanworks is one that is constantly getting C&Ds and having our content pulled down, where as fanfic is left more alone, but I want it to *stop*. I want the protection that the OTW is fighting for. And if we lose, well, I'd be willing to go back to those days where everything is behind locked doors, whatnot, it'd suck, but I think it's worth the risk.

Hmm, ok, I want to add a little as to my reasons for supporting the legal defense fund. I wasn't going to, but now I can't stop thinking about it, and I'll sleep better if I just get it out. :P

I think the days of "staying under the radar" are kind of over, or will be soon. Fandoms like Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, have made if much more main stream. We're not so much flying under the radar as we're in the radar but pretending to be rocks. Things like Fanlib, especially put us there, since they're going to the copyright holders and getting them to donate prizes, while fandlib makes money off of fic writers. Things like the offical stargate novels are written by fandom writers. Things like the official fanfic contests are going on over at certain offical webpages (I think CBS and Battlestar Galactica were mentioned, but I'm not positive on that).
Now those things may sound positive, and they are to some extent, but once we show our hand to them, and they accept certain ones, then they are well on the way to rejecting others. They don't want us to have complete freedom with their characters and concepts.

This can really impact all areas of fandom that aren't gen or established ship. Slash? Good luck. Kink? No way in hell.

There's also the fact that copyrights themselves are rapidly morphing from their original conception. Thanks big businesses like Disney, copyright is now life +70 years. They can now trademark characters which are protected *forever*.

Look at things like the Digital Millennium Copyright Act. The copyright holder can come in and demand you remove content from the internet without court approval. This has already been abused so that legitimate content has been removed, sometimes *against* the copyright holder.

In Canada the big shots are currently trying to change our copyright laws so much so, that you can be violating copyright if you listen to something *the wrong way*. You can get fined or jail time, even if you *paid* for the product. (Actually, I think someone made the comment, that under the proposed law, you can technically be violating the copyright terms if you get up to go to the bathroom during a commercial break).

If we don't take a stand and say no, the big shot copyright holders will take *everything* and what little protection we had will be gone. We, the people (not just the fans, but definitely the fans as well) need to join in a united front and *stop* them, because they won't stop on their own. We need to be ready for when they do finally start dragging us into court and make sure that it's on our terms, that we get a say.

I've been busy reading the new comments to this post before I knuckled under to answer you... *g*

A legal defence fund is going to have to look at a number of issues. And you hit one of them on the head in your reply to me. Vidding. That is another whole new ballgame when we are talking about C&D's. And I think it is a situation that OTW would be mad to use as their first test case. It is only my personal opinion, but I think that, on a sliding scale, vidding is actually the least defencible of our fannish works.

RPF/RPS is probably, from my limited thought on the subject, the most easily defencible as long as it is clearly marked as fiction. That would hopefully get around the libel/slander angle. There is usually no copyrighted material to be poached from, and RPF writers would hopefully only need to watch out for anyone who has trademarked their public persona. KISS would be a good example of this. Write about the band members, rather than their created characters, and libel/slander is probably all you'd need to worry about.

FPF/fanfic would be the middle ground, with fic based on material no longer copyrighted being safe, and a test case needed to decide if fanfic based on a copyrighted property is transformative enough to avoid being derivative.

But vidding, much as I love the artform, has a problem in that it uses a soundtrack with little change beyond cropping, and uses existing images to tell a new story. It is in the same medium as the source material, and is therefore harder to argue it is sufficiently transformative. Personally, I think the remixing of images is enough to make it transformative, but I think it is the music that is going to do us in!

cont...

So I think that there is a very good chance that, even with a legal defence fund, vidding may not be any closer to being protected. If I was running the fund, I'd prefer to test fanfic first and hopefully get a feel for the lay of the land. If we lose a test case for fanfic, we'd probably be dead in the water re a test case for vidding.

Argh! Talk about getting off track! *g*

Oh, I agree! The days of being under the radar are long gone, if they ever existed at all. There are tales from the 1980's of the 'sacred' Grandfather clause' which was why there has never been a test case for fanfic. Why it has only ever been C&D's as long as no profit was being made. I very carefully said profit being made rather than money changing hands, as the existance of zines was politely ignored by most copyright holders.

I've been googling 'grandfather clause fanfiction' and not getting much, but from memory: I think there was a legal opinion going around zine fandom in the earlyish days that if a copyright holder was going to go after a zine producer they would have to explain in court why they had chosen that particular zine producer and not the numerous zine producers before them. So, in effect, the copyright owners of Star Trek would have had to go and prosecute the zine producers in chronalogical order if they took such a case to court.

Not sure how viable that stance was, but it was something that had been bandied around fandom for years. So yes, we've never really been below the radar, but both sides have used that as a polite fiction to cover the situation.

With zines being very much on the wane and the transparently free fanfic economy of the internet, I suspect that polite fiction became even more entrenched. With so much fanfic out there, it is interesting that there is still not a test case. Yes, fans do succumb to C&D's, but it is interesting that no copyright holder (and there are some vitriolic ones out there) has yet taken it beyond a C&D.

That's good to know. It does bother me a bit how some people are saying they aren't being included, but aren't trying to be included either. Or those say they don't *want* to be included to the OTW should just fuck off.

My problem with saying that is...I don't necessarily want to be included (like I said, I haven't decided yet). But if they're misrepresenting my segments of fandom, I'm going to speak up as long as they claim to be representing those segments.

IMO, they should cut RPF out of their legal/advocacy stuff (it's on much firmer legal ground than FPF, for the most part, so it doesn't NEED to be included there) - welcome it on the archive and in the wiki, but so far I'm not seeing much understanding of the legal issues RPF does face, and I'm...undecided on whether I think they seem willing to learn. They listened to us whiners about "media fandom != all of fandom", but I'm still not convinced they're really listening, you know? Like, they changed that one thing but from where I'm sitting they're still making mistakes that say to me they missed our broader point, that RPF and media-based fandom aren't the same thing and can't be accurately represented using solely the terminology of one of those.

I've been told by an OTW committee member OTW isn't so much about "LOOK AT MEEEEE" as "if you're already looking this way, lemme turn on the light so you can see right"...but regardless, by their nature they'll be getting attention from outside sources, and if they're presenting inaccurate information about fandom, are they really serving their purpose well?

So whether or not I ultimately want to be involved with the organization, I don't think it's unfair of me to correct misinformation when I see it. I do think, however, there's a difference between correcting misinfo and bitching, and yeah, people whose comments boil down to "how dare you not do this this and this exactly my way, not that I'd be interested even if you did" would probably benefit from just taking their ball and going home.

BTW, how has the response to your "bitching" been? (Links are fine, since you said you had made some metafandom posts, which I will probably get around to *some time* when the holidays aren't taking up all my time). I'm curious as to how the OTW is handling things, since, for the most part, I've only had a chance to read a few people's reactions to all this.

From the actual OTW staff, it's generally been...pleasant, but somewhat dry and corporate. Lots of somewhat-meaningless PR babble and "I'll get back to you later with an official response". Which isn't all bad - it feels odd in a fannish space to be interacted with on a business level, but it certainly could be worse.

While I'm aware it's somewhat unfair of me to judge the organization by its supporters, I would like to mention the response from many OTWers has been...well, I mentioned in a friend's LJ my big problem with the OTWers I've had the more frustrating arguments with is it never seems to be enough to say "this language feels exclusive; were I coming upon this for the first time today, 'x' would leave me thinking I wasn't included", people expect justification, factual backup, fandom credentials, links to usage of x with intention to exclude, on and on and on to the point it feels less like an argument about the inclusivity of x and more like me on trial - as if my exclusion is somehow my fault.

I'll get you links...at some point, lol. I think I have a list saved somewhere :)

OMG, isn't *that* the truth. It seems the supporters always seem to give the "thing" a bad name... which I guess is one of the arguments made against fandom when it comes to legal ground. We may encourage each other, but outsiders just want to take a big step back.

Mmhm.

There are two reasons I'm not totally averse to judging OTW at least in part by its supporters:

a) as time has gone on, actual OTW staff have responded to my comments less and less - the last issue I raised, no official OTW people said a thing. If they're okay handing what really boils down to customer service complaints over to customers with no complaints, I look at that the same as implicit approval of what those customers are saying to the complainer.

b) there are really two approaches one can take to being judged: idealistic (no one SHOULD judge, so I'll behave as if no one DOES judge) and realistic (people are judgmental, how can I adjust my behavior to be judged in the proper light? [hopefully with the stipulation "as well as maintain my integrity", but God knows that doesn't always happen). I'm more on the realistic side, and I'm sure an advocacy group focused on a horribly misinterpreted pastime is going to be judged. And people will judge based on the members even when they don't speak in any official capacity - if someone's interactions with OTW members have all been bad, it may be fair for them to look into the organization and see how condoned that negative behavior is, but most people wouldn't bother. OTW members I've met are assholes = OTW are assholes, in many people's minds.

The logic is as flawed as judging fandom as a whole based on the OMG I ROTEZ THIS @ 2 AM ON A SUGAR HI!!!!!!!!!1111 crowd, but it happens. And the response to that is generally "um, we're not all sugar-crazed insomniac grammar-hating kiddies, really" - but OTW's not distancing itself from the "your feelings of exclusion are only valid if you can prove them to me" people.

Hmm, in some ways, I think that's exactly what they're *trying* to do, even if they're not outright saying it.

Tone doesn't come across well on the internet, heh. You're right - but what I meant to say was more...snooty. "No one else can do this right, so here we come to save fandom from itself".

Which I'm sure they're not trying to do. But a lot of the time that's how the OTW effort reads to me.

Other people though... part of it could be that they'd rather have someone they know and trust run it (enough fan sites out there have started out by good intentioned people who then reach the end of their rope and close it down. I noticed that there's a not on the wiki against that, but still, in general), but it could also be that a wiki is only as good as the people putting effort into it, and they feel that the OTW will have a big enough following to make their wiki better, simply because that's something that they could help with and say they were an active part of OTW.

I've heard that argument before. And...I get it, but not...hm. It's like you mentioning my comment in Scalzi was the first you thought of other fans disagreeing with OTW because the idea just hadn't occurred to you, and a while ago someone putting forward the idea that the group using "bamdom" to mean not "band fandom" but "fandom of a very specific group of bands" were doing so because they hadn't thought of fandoms existing based on bands outside that group, not contributing to a wiki based on who runs it just never occurred to me.

It's a reasonable argument, for sure, just not one I'd ever really thought of, and not one that really resonates with me.

Not contributing because a wiki is only as good as its contributors, however, really doesn't make sense to me. It's the same thing as people who, when I pimp FanworksFinder (http://www.fanworksfinder.com), decide not to use it because their fandom isn't well-represented yet.

"I won't do it because no one else has" just...doesn't sit right with me as a justification.

I also think that the fact that something already exists isn't enough of an excuse to the members of the OTW not to make another one, because there are already things out there for all of the projects they'd like to make.

There are, definitely. I think where I don't like that as a justification for doing another wiki is mainly that with all those other things that already exist, they're planning on doing them differently in some way - there aren't multifandom archives that really do take everything (no porn, no RPF, no slash, no het, no gen, etc.), there aren't social networking sites integrated with archives, etc. The wiki's the one area they appear to be doing the exact same thing as someone else in fandom, and it's the one area I think a collaboration would be most beneficial - I think multiple Wikis will be more fragmentary than helpful.

I do have to wonder though, if the owner of that wiki were to speak to the OTW and offer up her wiki to be the OTW wiki if they wouldn't take her up on it, I don't know, but it does sound like a much easier solution to me.

They've talked about it a bit, I know, but only after OTW announced plans for a wiki. I happen to think - and I'll be careful how I word this, because I've seen her get really criticized for sounding self-centered when she said this - I would've liked to see them contact her. But that has a lot to do with my view of their board+committees as very insular and representing a specific segment of fandom - I think they would've benefitted from talking to archivists and other fannish people of influence from more varied backgrounds earlier.

a wiki is only as good as what it's members put into it.

Agreed. And this is my point!

I think it's going to be impossible to accurately represent fandom

I agree. But it is a collective (or a series of intersecting collectives), and I think some communication needs to happen to make the diverse aspects of it accessible. But I think there are always people who would rather bitch about how something is exclusive, than enter into dialogue.

Maybe I'm just naive or haven't read enough about everything yet, but yeah, I'm positive about it.

I don't think you should feel that you are naive/haven't read enough. Don't negate your opinions!! :) Everyone has different reactions to this kind of project, and it's nice to see one that is focusing on the positives.

and they will at least consider helping me, regardless of whether the fanwork appears on their site or not.

Yes, that is how I would interpret it as well.

Or those say they don't *want* to be included to the OTW should just fuck off.
...hmm, it looks like I was thinking faster than I was typing when I wrote that, what I actually *meant* to say was the people who say they don't want to be part of the OTW and the OTW should fuck off (not that I think the people who don't want to be included should fuck off, that kind of goes against what I was saying before...).

But if they're misrepresenting my segments of fandom, I'm going to speak up as long as they claim to be representing those segments.
Yeah, I can't really claim to beleive that the OTW totally knows all of fandom. The part that really gets me is that they say fandom is a female thing. And I can see where you'd get that impression if you're a slasher, but there are plenty of guys in fandom, they just move in different circles.

IMO, they should cut RPF out of their legal/advocacy stuff
Wow, is that ever a bad idea.
Can you imagine if the OTW went out there saying "We're here to help should there be legal troubles... unless you're into RPF, then you're SOL"

I think people really misinterpret the legal side of things. When they say they are proactive on the legal side of things, they mean they're doing the research, and building a case now in the hopes that they never have to go to court. And they're going to be taking things one problem at a time. They're not out to revolutionize copyright law. When I asked at the meeting last night, they even said they might not be able to take some cases on, depending on the chances, resources and people involved. The last thing they want is to go in and *lose*.
Someone also asked last night about how they plan to treat RPS on their legal side, but I'll admit, I don't really remember the answer, but it should be in the transcript once they post it.

as time has gone on, actual OTW staff have responded to my comments less and less
Not that I'm condoning it, but, I think they've become a little overwhelemed by fandoms response, and they're taking the time to give official responses, rather than just have volunteers go out and give what they think is the correct answer. I know that at last night's chat, they would take a while to answer because all the mod type people had a seperate chat going on where they discussed what to say.
When you're online, people are used to getting answers immediately. They don't want to have to wait, because a day in internet time is about a week in real time. But since the OTW is a corporation, and since they are what outsiders are going to be seeing if they take a look at fandom, they have to be very careful to act like one, and make sure that all it's volunteers aren't going out and giving conflicting information.

I still think that they'd be better off though, writing up a better FAQ, and having more chances for people to openly ask questions.

what I meant to say was more...snooty. "No one else can do this right, so here we come to save fandom from itself".
Hmm, I suppose, but I more saw it as, "People always complian about how the resources we have don't fit fandom properly, or we're shocked when they don't take into account fandoms needs. Some people try to fix this, but it's too much for one person alone, so here's a big group with a lot of support that will stand a better chance of fixing this."

Don't negate your opinions!!
It's more, I'm not necissarily one of those people who sees the problems right away, and often have to have them pointed out to me, and I'm feeling a little behind, since I have about a mazillion windows open right now about the OTW but I just haven't had a chance to read them all.
The things I have had a chance to read though hasn't been able to dampen my enthusiasm though.

and they will at least consider helping me, regardless of whether the fanwork appears on their site or not.
That was the impression I got. I asked about the legal aid at the open chat yesterday, and I think people might be attributing more to it than they meant. I think they still want to be there for people, but they also seem to be really realistic about it too, and aren't planning on taking on copyright laws and their IP rights holders if they can avoid it.

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