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Question
So, I've spent most of the day reading up on what people are saying about the OTW are saying. Mostly from non-fandom people, and it's kind of making me want to shoot things, but I was wondering:
What do you think about the OTW? Would you like an archive? A written fannish history? A wiki (OMG, I can't tell you how much I'd like a wiki for fandom, although I can see it being vandalized a lot)? Do you think it's a good idea to have a legal defense fund? If the OTW were ever to go to court, would you support them?
I'm planning on making a post sometime about how I feel about it, but I'm really curious as to what other people on my flist think about it. I think so far only one person on my flist has really written about it, but I spent a couple months away so could have totally missed something.
Also, I am having a bitch of a time working on a mysql database, any one know enough about setting up eFiction to want to help?
What do you think about the OTW? Would you like an archive? A written fannish history? A wiki (OMG, I can't tell you how much I'd like a wiki for fandom, although I can see it being vandalized a lot)? Do you think it's a good idea to have a legal defense fund? If the OTW were ever to go to court, would you support them?
I'm planning on making a post sometime about how I feel about it, but I'm really curious as to what other people on my flist think about it. I think so far only one person on my flist has really written about it, but I spent a couple months away so could have totally missed something.
Also, I am having a bitch of a time working on a mysql database, any one know enough about setting up eFiction to want to help?
OTW Part 2
After I made this post, I read that there is already one here. I haven't really looked at it yet, but I book marked it. I really hope that they have a lot of the fandom/net acronyms on it. I hate it when people say things like DJSIEC, and I have no friggin' clue what the heck they're talking about. It took me about a year to find out what OTP stood for, and for the longest time I thought FTW was a polite/sneaky way of saying WTF (since it's backwards). Sometimes the context just isn't enough.
I should also say that I do not enjoy seeing the really nasty responses to OTW - I think some people need to realise that even if it's not for them, they don't have to get vicious about it -- instead, they should get over it, and accept that because fandom is so diverse, OTW will work for some people, not work for others, and leave others still with mixed feelings
I think that stems from the fact that the OTW is trying to some extent to be a representative front. Even if it's acknowledged that they aren't within fandom, those outside fandom won't see it that way, and people are afraid of being misrepresented. The person that left the link to the wiki commented that:
It was that comment that really made me make this post, because I kind of assumed that most of fandom either liked the idea or were indifferent to it. To see people complain about it...
Of course my response to this person is, if they don't think they're section of fandom is being represented, then join in and represent it.
Also, the OTW is fairly new and can only work on so many projects at once, but I think they'd be open to more once they get their first few things done.
Re: OTW Part 2
That comment you quoted was mine - I chose to use my real name rather than my fannish pseud to avoid gender confusion. And this:
Of course my response to this person is, if they don't think they're section of fandom is being represented, then join in and represent it.
Is a totally fair response. I actually have participated - I follow the community, I post comments when I have issues, I've written a couple metafandom-linked crit posts and welcomed discourse there. Which isn't to say "how dare you question my particpation, person who has no idea who I am", but just to point out that I do participate, and I'm not just running around bitching everywhere but to the people who could make changes based on my bitching :)
Also, the OTW is fairly new and can only work on so many projects at once, but I think they'd be open to more once they get their first few things done.<./i>
I totally get this, and my issue isn't so much with what they actually have/haven't done than with their attitude. And I should add my view of their attitude is perhaps unfairly colored by the amount of negative interactions I've had with non-"staff"(board/committee members) supporters when I've raised questions/criticisms.
But, to me, and to a few people I know, so far they've come across as very "we're going to do all these things the right way." Which I'm sure they're not doing on purpose, but...well, as an example, one of my very first problems with OTW was their announcement of a goal to create a fan history wiki, with no acknowledgement of one that already exists. And when I brought up the existing FanHistory wiki (http://www.fanhistory.com), the responses ranged from politely dismissive to downright vitriolic. And to see something I know has had hours and hours and hours of work put into it dismissed and insulted and heavily criticized (my favorites were the criticisms about incompleteness and factual error - it's a wiki, anyone is welcome to fix any error they find) and drug through the mud because it wasn't the right fan who owned it...I have a very hard time looking past that to see the good intentions.
I should point out I'm still not decided one way or the other how I feel about OTW. I think from a strictly marketing/PR standpoint they have a long way to go, I think they may be overambitious, I think they're treading in dangerous waters re: legal issues. But at the same time I think a lot of their issues stem from gaps in knowledge that anyone could be expected to have.
Time will tell if that "We'll do ___ the right way" attitude is a misconception, or a reality that will stand in the way of filling those gaps.
(/end butting in)
Re: OTW Part 1
No, I don't mind, feel free to jump right in. If I wanted to keep "outsiders" out, I'd lock the post. :P
And I meant what I said above, your comment is the one that made me stop and think "Huh, not all fans are behind this" and that's why I choose it to quote, and not any of the others, Sidebar would have been a much better example of what we were discussing.
Looking back, it seems silly that I would assume that all fans would like the idea (How long have I been in fandom? No one agrees about *anything*), it's just I'm one of those people that has to actually stop and think about something before other opinions occur to me. I'm rather short sighted like that.
Anyways....
Is a totally fair response. I actually have participated... t just to point out that I do participate, and I'm not just running around bitching everywhere but to the people who could make changes based on my bitching :)
That's good to know. It does bother me a bit how some people are saying they aren't being included, but aren't trying to be included either. Or those say they don't *want* to be included to the OTW should just fuck off.
BTW, how has the response to your "bitching" been? (Links are fine, since you said you had made some metafandom posts, which I will probably get around to *some time* when the holidays aren't taking up all my time). I'm curious as to how the OTW is handling things, since, for the most part, I've only had a chance to read a few people's reactions to all this.
I totally get this, and my issue isn't so much with what they actually have/haven't done than with their attitude. And I should add my view of their attitude is perhaps unfairly colored by the amount of negative interactions I've had with non-"staff"(board/committee members) supporters when I've raised questions/criticisms.
OMG, isn't *that* the truth. It seems the supporters always seem to give the "thing" a bad name... which I guess is one of the arguments made against fandom when it comes to legal ground. We may encourage each other, but outsiders just want to take a big step back.
But, to me, and to a few people I know, so far they've come across as very "we're going to do all these things the right way."
Hmm, in some ways, I think that's exactly what they're *trying* to do, even if they're not outright saying it. I mean the idea was based on "This is what we have, and it's not working, so we're going to make our own." The fans on LJ feel that a lot. Most of my friends online are anti-ff.net, because of all their stupid rules (the rating rule being a big one, since we read/write slash), the poor ratio of good fics compared to bad fics, and, well, the mentality of some of the people over there (not to say it's a great one over here). That environment doesn't work for us. Neither do a lot of the alternatives (is Quizilla *really* considered a fanfic archive?), even livejournal, where a lot of us currently reside. LJ always kind of sucked as an archive, but now it's beginning to fail as a safe haven for fandom too.
The archives out there are failing fans *here* and AAOOO was the answer to that. It's just sort of grown since then.
As for the wiki, I don't think it's a reflection spefically on that site. I personally had never heard of it before, I'll definitely use it now that it's been pointed out to me though. I noticed that my fandom doesn't seem to be very represented on there, so I signed up for an account, and will see about fixing that.
Cont...
Re: OTW Part 1a
My problem with saying that is...I don't necessarily want to be included (like I said, I haven't decided yet). But if they're misrepresenting my segments of fandom, I'm going to speak up as long as they claim to be representing those segments.
IMO, they should cut RPF out of their legal/advocacy stuff (it's on much firmer legal ground than FPF, for the most part, so it doesn't NEED to be included there) - welcome it on the archive and in the wiki, but so far I'm not seeing much understanding of the legal issues RPF does face, and I'm...undecided on whether I think they seem willing to learn. They listened to us whiners about "media fandom != all of fandom", but I'm still not convinced they're really listening, you know? Like, they changed that one thing but from where I'm sitting they're still making mistakes that say to me they missed our broader point, that RPF and media-based fandom aren't the same thing and can't be accurately represented using solely the terminology of one of those.
I've been told by an OTW committee member OTW isn't so much about "LOOK AT MEEEEE" as "if you're already looking this way, lemme turn on the light so you can see right"...but regardless, by their nature they'll be getting attention from outside sources, and if they're presenting inaccurate information about fandom, are they really serving their purpose well?
So whether or not I ultimately want to be involved with the organization, I don't think it's unfair of me to correct misinformation when I see it. I do think, however, there's a difference between correcting misinfo and bitching, and yeah, people whose comments boil down to "how dare you not do this this and this exactly my way, not that I'd be interested even if you did" would probably benefit from just taking their ball and going home.
BTW, how has the response to your "bitching" been? (Links are fine, since you said you had made some metafandom posts, which I will probably get around to *some time* when the holidays aren't taking up all my time). I'm curious as to how the OTW is handling things, since, for the most part, I've only had a chance to read a few people's reactions to all this.
From the actual OTW staff, it's generally been...pleasant, but somewhat dry and corporate. Lots of somewhat-meaningless PR babble and "I'll get back to you later with an official response". Which isn't all bad - it feels odd in a fannish space to be interacted with on a business level, but it certainly could be worse.
While I'm aware it's somewhat unfair of me to judge the organization by its supporters, I would like to mention the response from many OTWers has been...well, I mentioned in a friend's LJ my big problem with the OTWers I've had the more frustrating arguments with is it never seems to be enough to say "this language feels exclusive; were I coming upon this for the first time today, 'x' would leave me thinking I wasn't included", people expect justification, factual backup, fandom credentials, links to usage of x with intention to exclude, on and on and on to the point it feels less like an argument about the inclusivity of x and more like me on trial - as if my exclusion is somehow my fault.
I'll get you links...at some point, lol. I think I have a list saved somewhere :)
Re: OTW Part 1a
...hmm, it looks like I was thinking faster than I was typing when I wrote that, what I actually *meant* to say was the people who say they don't want to be part of the OTW and the OTW should fuck off (not that I think the people who don't want to be included should fuck off, that kind of goes against what I was saying before...).
But if they're misrepresenting my segments of fandom, I'm going to speak up as long as they claim to be representing those segments.
Yeah, I can't really claim to beleive that the OTW totally knows all of fandom. The part that really gets me is that they say fandom is a female thing. And I can see where you'd get that impression if you're a slasher, but there are plenty of guys in fandom, they just move in different circles.
IMO, they should cut RPF out of their legal/advocacy stuff
Wow, is that ever a bad idea.
Can you imagine if the OTW went out there saying "We're here to help should there be legal troubles... unless you're into RPF, then you're SOL"
I think people really misinterpret the legal side of things. When they say they are proactive on the legal side of things, they mean they're doing the research, and building a case now in the hopes that they never have to go to court. And they're going to be taking things one problem at a time. They're not out to revolutionize copyright law. When I asked at the meeting last night, they even said they might not be able to take some cases on, depending on the chances, resources and people involved. The last thing they want is to go in and *lose*.
Someone also asked last night about how they plan to treat RPS on their legal side, but I'll admit, I don't really remember the answer, but it should be in the transcript once they post it.
Re: OTW Part 1a
Haha, I hate when I do that.
Wow, is that ever a bad idea.
Can you imagine if the OTW went out there saying "We're here to help should there be legal troubles... unless you're into RPF, then you're SOL"
I think it depends how they approach it. There are a couple reasons I think OTW would benefit from cutting RPF out of legal/advocacy work:
- the culture of RPFandom where it doesn't have a community that comes mainly from media fandom is different than the culture of media fandom (this is a hugely broad statement, I know, just liberally apply "for the most part"s all over, lol). To me, misrepresenting that culture - as they have done several times - is worse than saying "At the moment, we don't feel our knowledge of RPFandom is extensive enough to represent it properly in our advocacy work. RPF will always be welcome in our archive, and RPFers are of course welcome in the Organization, but while we work with members of RPF communities to broaden our understanding, we will refrain from advocating something we don't feel we understand fully."
- The legal issues surrounding RPF are very different from those concerning media-based fandom, and I haven't seen any evidence they understand those. I know they're not after changing laws or being revolutionary, but if they're offering any sort of legal help I'd feel more comfortable if I felt they understood what the specific issues were. And again, it's all in how they handle it. "Of course we want to help any and every one in fandom who may run into legal trouble, but we offer this help with the admittance that, being mainly media fandomers ourselves, our knowledge of the legalities surrounding RPF is somewhat limited. We are always working to educate ourselves further, and we will absolutely not turn away anyone looking for help, but we want you to be aware RPF is not our area of expertise."
So not necessarily cutting it out fully (although, really, I'd be far more comfortable if they DID cut RPF out of their advocacy work because already I've seen bloggers referring to fandom-as-a-whole with "media fandom", and ARGH), but even just admitting their limitations would make me a happy camper.
Re: OTW Part 1a
Hi! My question, shockingly, is also on
the legal side of things.
first, i want to applaud you guys for
having a big-tent approach to fannish work. it seems
like it would be easy to say, "we're here for fic
because we think we can win with fic, but the vidders
are on their own," etc.
however, RPS in particular seems to have
its own set of legal issues, yet i've only seen
comment so far on the fanfic/fanvid side of things.
are you guys working on specific
messages/defenses for RPS/RPF?
I will start by saying that probably we
will set up a chat with Rebecca Tushnet, our head of
Legal, who can give the really correct answers to all
the legal questions
well, from a CommRel perspective, as well.
not being a lawyer, I will say that my
understanding from our discussions is that RPS/RPF are
on much more solid and understood ground
legally speaking
with respect to libel?
we definitely *are* concerned about them
in terms of caring about RPS and RPF
and wanting to protect them too
libel/defamation/slander you are totally
safe as long as it is clear the work is fiction
in my nonlawyer understanding!
right.
are there other legal aspects for RPF
that you are specifically concerned about?
since RPF pushes a good number of people's
squick buttons pretty hard, is OTW going to work on a
"message" about why it's legit?
and why it's included?
let me actually answer this more
generally -- we are not looking to judge squick/squee,
period. that is, we have zero desire as an org to get
into the business of deciding what is "worthy" or
"good" and don't think it is our place
we're going to include everything that
our legal team tells us we can that does not risk
getting us sent to jail :>
ha ha, awesome. thanks.
(Anything else, Lottelita?)
not at the moment!
Re: OTW Part 1a
"At the moment, we don't feel our knowledge of RPFandom is extensive enough to represent it properly in our advocacy work. RPF will always be welcome in our archive, and RPFers are of course welcome in the Organization, but while we work with members of RPF communities to broaden our understanding, we will refrain from advocating something we don't feel we understand fully."
Well, the impression that I got from the chat is that they are acknowledging that they don't know all the legal ins about outs involved with RPF, but they don’t know all the legal ins and outs of FPF either, but they are going to invest time into learning those ins and outs in case anything ever comes of it in court.
I also got the impression that if it does ever go to court, they’re going to do whatever to win that specific case, and they’re not going to try and make it about *all* fanfiction. It might be used as precedence in a case later, but they’re not going to try and mash all fandom in as one thing.
if they're offering any sort of legal help I'd feel more comfortable if I felt they understood what the specific issues were. And again, it's all in how they handle it. "Of course we want to help any and every one in fandom who may run into legal trouble, but we offer this help with the admittance that, being mainly media fandomers ourselves, our knowledge of the legalities surrounding RPF is somewhat limited. We are always working to educate ourselves further, and we will absolutely not turn away anyone looking for help, but we want you to be aware RPF is not our area of expertise."
Except… they’d end up saying that an awful lot.
So far, most of the focus has been on fanfic, media fanfic if you’d like, but they’re offering their services for all fanworks, this includes things like vids, and artwork made, it includes fan videos (scripted acts) and manips. It includes book fandoms, TV fandoms, movie fandoms and the RP fandom (and probably more that I can’t think of at the moment).
The main lawyer they have on the board is American. What if it’s an Australian that needs legal help? Are they to put a warning up that they only know American law?
The purpose of the legal side of things is to *build* a case, any knowledge that they bring to the table now is just a bonus. And they want to develop a network of contacts so they can have people to call on in case something is beyond their current abilities, but that being said, if the lawyers that are on the board are professionals, then I would think they’d be professional enough to take what’s given to them. Each case is going to need it’s own research, each case is probably going to need outside help, it’s just a matter of where to go for that outside help.
So yeah, I don’t think the RPF writer is much less represented than a Canadian vid maker (like me).
Re: OTW Part 1a
Re: OTW Part 1a
(Anonymous) - 2008-01-03 13:18 (UTC) - ExpandRe: OTW Part 1a
Re: OTW Part 1b
Mmhm.
There are two reasons I'm not totally averse to judging OTW at least in part by its supporters:
a) as time has gone on, actual OTW staff have responded to my comments less and less - the last issue I raised, no official OTW people said a thing. If they're okay handing what really boils down to customer service complaints over to customers with no complaints, I look at that the same as implicit approval of what those customers are saying to the complainer.
b) there are really two approaches one can take to being judged: idealistic (no one SHOULD judge, so I'll behave as if no one DOES judge) and realistic (people are judgmental, how can I adjust my behavior to be judged in the proper light? [hopefully with the stipulation "as well as maintain my integrity", but God knows that doesn't always happen). I'm more on the realistic side, and I'm sure an advocacy group focused on a horribly misinterpreted pastime is going to be judged. And people will judge based on the members even when they don't speak in any official capacity - if someone's interactions with OTW members have all been bad, it may be fair for them to look into the organization and see how condoned that negative behavior is, but most people wouldn't bother. OTW members I've met are assholes = OTW are assholes, in many people's minds.
The logic is as flawed as judging fandom as a whole based on the OMG I ROTEZ THIS @ 2 AM ON A SUGAR HI!!!!!!!!!1111 crowd, but it happens. And the response to that is generally "um, we're not all sugar-crazed insomniac grammar-hating kiddies, really" - but OTW's not distancing itself from the "your feelings of exclusion are only valid if you can prove them to me" people.
Hmm, in some ways, I think that's exactly what they're *trying* to do, even if they're not outright saying it.
Tone doesn't come across well on the internet, heh. You're right - but what I meant to say was more...snooty. "No one else can do this right, so here we come to save fandom from itself".
Which I'm sure they're not trying to do. But a lot of the time that's how the OTW effort reads to me.
Re: OTW Part 1b
Not that I'm condoning it, but, I think they've become a little overwhelemed by fandoms response, and they're taking the time to give official responses, rather than just have volunteers go out and give what they think is the correct answer. I know that at last night's chat, they would take a while to answer because all the mod type people had a seperate chat going on where they discussed what to say.
When you're online, people are used to getting answers immediately. They don't want to have to wait, because a day in internet time is about a week in real time. But since the OTW is a corporation, and since they are what outsiders are going to be seeing if they take a look at fandom, they have to be very careful to act like one, and make sure that all it's volunteers aren't going out and giving conflicting information.
I still think that they'd be better off though, writing up a better FAQ, and having more chances for people to openly ask questions.
what I meant to say was more...snooty. "No one else can do this right, so here we come to save fandom from itself".
Hmm, I suppose, but I more saw it as, "People always complian about how the resources we have don't fit fandom properly, or we're shocked when they don't take into account fandoms needs. Some people try to fix this, but it's too much for one person alone, so here's a big group with a lot of support that will stand a better chance of fixing this."
Re: OTW Part 1b
Oh yeah, I get why...but at the same time, I think if they see a discussion getting heated, or going on for quite a while, at least stepping in with a little "interesting point, we're discussing this and I'll be back with a real answer later" note would be better than nothing.
I still think that they'd be better off though, writing up a better FAQ, and having more chances for people to openly ask questions.
Definitely. I think the chat was a step in the right direction (and I hate that I couldn't make it for more than a few minutes at a time) and I'm glad they scrapped the original plan for a room that only allowed 25 people at a time; I think the TOS/TOU focus group is a step that way, too. I know opening things up to community scrutiny can be problematic in a getting-things-done sense, but with the way fandom operates, taking community input at every opportunity is probably the best PR move they could make.
Where OTW runs into trouble, really, is they have to please two worlds at once - the "outside" world, and fandom. And both worlds require different things (for example, the board using their legal names and not disclosing their fannish identities - the legal names are what the outside world wants, but especially in the wake of FanLib, fandom's more concerned with proof of fannish involvement...so how do they please both and still maintain their privacy?), and every time those requirements conflict and they decide one way or the other, they're risking pissing off one side.
So what it really comes down to is deciding which side to come down on for which issue - like, for advocacy work they should probably favor the outside world more, for tools like the archive it's obviously more important to please fandom.
It's an interesting tightrope to walk, and one I'm not sure I envy ;)
Hmm, I suppose, but I more saw it as, "People always complian about how the resources we have don't fit fandom properly, or we're shocked when they don't take into account fandoms needs. Some people try to fix this, but it's too much for one person alone, so here's a big group with a lot of support that will stand a better chance of fixing this."
It's really all down to interpretation, innit. I'm not arguing (and have never intended to argue) the people seeing OTW in a positive light are wrong (and no OTW-thoughts post pisses me off more than those that try to say the dissenters are wrong because they disagree with the OP - to that end, and considering the person who linked me here has a bad habit of linking me to the THE WHINERS ARE WRONG BECAUSE OTW ROOLZ posts, this post was rather refreshing). I think what they need to succeed, in the end, will be a healthy mix - the positive encouragement, and the whiners like me finding weak spots. And sometimes the supporters will miss glaring weak spots in their excitement, and sometimes the dissenters will find problems where there are none, because no one's perfect...but if the supporters get upset that the dissenters exist and drive them all away, someday one of those weak spots that got missed will bring down OTW. And if the dissenters drive away the supporters, I doubt there's anyone on Earth who wouldn't get fed up with the constant nitpicking and start wondering why the Hell they even bother.
Re: OTW Part 1b
I think though, that while certainly in some cases they’d be able to do that without any problems, it’s a little too much to ask for the board to go out searching for discussions all over the internet and try and answer questions. I mean, have a look at
Instead what they’re doing is providing people with a place to come to them with such questions. Despite the fact that people seem to be really confused over the OTW and their stance on things, the chat last week had very few people there. I don’t think there was ever more than 30 people in the room, and about 6 of those were from the OTW.
Where OTW runs into trouble, really, is they have to please two worlds at once - the "outside" world, and fandom.
Yeah, that’s definitely going to be their big problem, and at the moment I kind of feel that they’re moving in more of a RL mode than a fannish one, but I think if they’re a legal company they have to. That’s why they’re using real names instead of fannish ones, because it’s required by law, but I also think that most people know their fannish names as well, at least if they’re a person who would know their fannish names already.
Personally, I think that working in a RL mode is more important at the moment, and I just wish that fandom would realize that they need to. If we are ever taken to court, it’s really important that the OTW can be looked at and seen as a professional organization and not as a group of squeeing fan girls.
considering the person who linked me here has a bad habit of linking me to the THE WHINERS ARE WRONG BECAUSE OTW ROOLZ posts, this post was rather refreshing).
Well like I said, I have my gut reaction, but I see that it’s not everyone’s reaction, so want more info (and am too lazy to read the 50 million posts about it right away, I’m working on it though, about 10 down only 49,999,950 to go :P)
I think what they need to succeed, in the end, will be a healthy mix - the positive encouragement, and the whiners like me finding weak spots.
And I’m not saying that people shouldn’t point out weak spots, but I must admit, I’m getting rather tired of people not giving them a chance to work things out. It seems that some people want things to be done perfectly or not at all. That if they aren’t recognized in their own unique way, then the OTW shouldn’t even try.
Every group has it’s bumps, and hurdles to get over, the OTW just needs to be given a chance to try.
Re: OTW Part 1b
Re: OTW Part 1b
Re: OTW Part 2
... hmm, I'm doing a really bad job explaining in words what I mean here. Really, bad. It's... I also think that the fact that something already exists isn't enough of an excuse to the members of the OTW not to make another one, because there are already things out there for all of the projects they'd like to make. There are already quite a few multi fandom archives, that many people totally love, and feel insulted that anyone would try to replace, there are already social networking sites out there (so, so many), I'm sure there's already groups out there trying to document fannish history (I know there was a fairly comprehensive list of the HP fandom in the earlier years out there somewhere), and I *know* there are already people out there looking into the legalities of fandom in general. Just because something already exists doesn't mean that the OTW can't make another. And even if the other alternative out there is a *good* one, the OTW wants to present an "all in one" feel for newcomers to fandom, and to fandom as a whole. Someone who's been in fandom for a while, or who has taken the time already to look for a wiki might see the one you linked to, but many others have no idea of it's existence. They want to have one that's right there in a central location.
And I don't think the OTW is going to go looking for affiliates, at least not anywhere near the beginning, because it opens up a whole *other* can of worms (why did you choose one over the other? And the fans/users of the "other" might come to resent the OTW for not choosing them, while they still have to deal with the one they choose, and all the expectations of the existing users, as well and their rules and how they fit into the OTWs rules). I do have to wonder though, if the owner of that wiki were to speak to the OTW and offer up her wiki to be the OTW wiki if they wouldn't take her up on it, I don't know, but it does sound like a much easier solution to me.
I should point out I'm still not decided one way or the other how I feel about OTW.
Yeah, I was decided, but it really does depend on how things turn out. They can still screw us up yet :P
Gah! I just can't shut up it seems, sorry for the hugely long repsonse....
Re: OTW Part 2
I've heard that argument before. And...I get it, but not...hm. It's like you mentioning my comment in Scalzi was the first you thought of other fans disagreeing with OTW because the idea just hadn't occurred to you, and a while ago someone putting forward the idea that the group using "bamdom" to mean not "band fandom" but "fandom of a very specific group of bands" were doing so because they hadn't thought of fandoms existing based on bands outside that group, not contributing to a wiki based on who runs it just never occurred to me.
It's a reasonable argument, for sure, just not one I'd ever really thought of, and not one that really resonates with me.
Not contributing because a wiki is only as good as its contributors, however, really doesn't make sense to me. It's the same thing as people who, when I pimp FanworksFinder (http://www.fanworksfinder.com), decide not to use it because their fandom isn't well-represented yet.
"I won't do it because no one else has" just...doesn't sit right with me as a justification.
I also think that the fact that something already exists isn't enough of an excuse to the members of the OTW not to make another one, because there are already things out there for all of the projects they'd like to make.
There are, definitely. I think where I don't like that as a justification for doing another wiki is mainly that with all those other things that already exist, they're planning on doing them differently in some way - there aren't multifandom archives that really do take everything (no porn, no RPF, no slash, no het, no gen, etc.), there aren't social networking sites integrated with archives, etc. The wiki's the one area they appear to be doing the exact same thing as someone else in fandom, and it's the one area I think a collaboration would be most beneficial - I think multiple Wikis will be more fragmentary than helpful.
I do have to wonder though, if the owner of that wiki were to speak to the OTW and offer up her wiki to be the OTW wiki if they wouldn't take her up on it, I don't know, but it does sound like a much easier solution to me.
They've talked about it a bit, I know, but only after OTW announced plans for a wiki. I happen to think - and I'll be careful how I word this, because I've seen her get really criticized for sounding self-centered when she said this - I would've liked to see them contact her. But that has a lot to do with my view of their board+committees as very insular and representing a specific segment of fandom - I think they would've benefitted from talking to archivists and other fannish people of influence from more varied backgrounds earlier.
Re: OTW Part 2
It's actually a pretty big factor to a lot of people. Fandom after all is one big school ground where the cool kids are still the ones with the influence. I know that when I had recently joined a fandom, I tried to start an archive for it, because the main one was shut down (because the owner decided they had had enough, and they didn't even give the members any warning). I had a few people help me out, and managed to get it up really quickly, but because I wasn't well known, and the people helping me out weren't BNFs, my archive was quickly overshadowed by one that was opened much later by BNFs. Even though I had contacted all of the authors who had posted on the site that was taken down, they all decided that they'd rather wait for a BNF to put up a site than trust someone they didn't know. There were other factors involved too, but that was a really big one.
Not contributing because a wiki is only as good as its contributors, however, really doesn't make sense to me.
It does and it doesn't for me. On the one hand it's a self fulfilling prophecy, but on the other hand, do you really want to put a lot of work into something when you're not sure it'll take off? That no one else in your fandom is going to care? If the owner/members don't care enough to work to get us to contribute, why should I (generalized I here) waste my time trying to do so. Especially when there's another one around the corner that *is* trying to get my attention. That is doing it's best to get a wide variety of members, and is going to be attached to something that by it's nature will be getting a lot of traffic and a wide variety of members.
The wiki's the one area they appear to be doing the exact same thing as someone else in fandom
I still don't think that's a reason for them not to do it. If only because as a bigger more well known group of people, with a wide variety of members, theirs is going to be bigger and offer things to more people than the one that already exists. And while *some* people are willing to take the time to go fill in a wiki, most just want to show up and have information there for them, so that respect the current wiki is failing.
The OTW is also probably going to be taking a slightly different approach to how they build and organize their wiki, so it won't actually be exactly the same.
I happen to think - and I'll be careful how I word this, because I've seen her get really criticized for sounding self-centered when she said this - I would've liked to see them contact her.
If the owners reason for not contacting the OTW is because she feels that they should have contacted her, then it's no wonder that people feel she's being self-centered. That's not really an excuse at all.
When it comes down to it, she's not a threat to the OTW; there are a hell of a lot more people devoted to ff.net than there are to the wiki.
Cont...
Re: OTW Part 2
For some reason it makes more sense to me worded like that, lol. I always think of it as "I'm not doing any work until I see other people doing it", which just seems like a silly argument to me. "I don't want to waste my time until I'm sure this'll go somewhere" still isn't something that resonates with me, but I get it more.
Re: OTW Part 2
You, for example, seem to have no trouble working for what you want. There are however a ton of lurkers, who no matter how much they want something, won't put the time into getting it (sometimes out of laziness, sometimes out of something else, I know I had some really deep set fears of coming out of lurkerdom when I first joined fandom). And then there are people like me, who love fandom, but always tries to take on more than I have time for, so I don't want to spend what little fandom time I have working on something that either I'm never going to use again after my fervor for it dies down, or, especially, that not very many people are going to use after I work on it (I have too many labours of love going on to spend time on one that isn't going to be used).
Re: OTW Part 2
But like I said, setting up the basics for a wiki is easy, the code is open source after all, the real effort is getting information put into the wiki, and the OTW already has enough support all over to make that part easy too. The don’t really need to the existing wiki to move forward, and I really can’t see them extending that courtesy to the wiki owner when they haven’t done so to any of the other groups that they are making an alternative for just because in this case, there’s only one other main alternative (there are a ton of fandom specific wiki’s out there already).
I think they would've benefitted from talking to archivists and other fannish people of influence from more varied backgrounds earlier.
Umm, Naomi is an archivist. She's the one who created the Automated Archive software that a lot of archives are based off of, and has been running archive for almost 14 years. Didn't I also hear that the creator of Skyhawke is volunteering with them? And reading the bios of the board, one of them also runs a huge Buffy archive. They seem to have a lot of experience to me....
Re: OTW Part 2
I don't, and won't claim to, know what her reasons were for wishing they'd contacted her.
From where I'm sitting it contributes to that idea of "we're gonna come in and do all these things right since obviously no one else can"...and to some extent time will tell on that.
I have a hard time seeing how a fandom wiki could be fundamentally different than another fandom wiki, but if OTW's IS noticeably different, that'll probably appease me.
If they just do the same thing over again? Good reason or not, I personally have an issue with them coming in and duplicating something I know a lot of time and effort has gone into without so much as a nod at the original. Which, I suppose, is all down to personal issues. That bothers me, there are lots of people who aren't bothered by it.
Umm, Naomi is an archivist. She's the one who created the Automated Archive software that a lot of archives are based off of, and has been running archive for almost 14 years. Didn't I also hear that the creator of Skyhawke is volunteering with them? And reading the bios of the board, one of them also runs a huge Buffy archive. They seem to have a lot of experience to me....
Oh! I didn't mean to imply there's no experience there - "more varied backgrounds" is the important part of that sentence. Their experience is almost exclusively media-based, LJ-centered and female. Not that there's anything wrong with any of those, but their collective knowledge is all gleaned from similar experiences, and I think they'd only benefit from reaching out to different corners of fandom.
Re: OTW Part 2
Er, yeah, pretty much where I stand as well, as someone who's put a lot of time and work into the FanHistory wiki at this point and not inclined to repeat those efforts just for the sake of repeating myself elsewhere.
Re: OTW Part 2
Re: OTW Part 2
It's going to be different if only because it's likely to be different people working on it. The OTW has come off as very academically oriented, and I think that it's likely going to show in their wiki as everyone puts their thinking caps on. They are also dealing with a whole boat load of fandoms at the moment, and so are more likely to get a wider response from them.
If they just do the same thing over again?
I actually have no problem what so ever of them doing something over again. Think of RL. How horrible would it be if there were only one history text that *everyone* used. Or only one newspaper or news channel to watch. There may be a single one that you choose to watch, but you always have the variety out there, and it keeps facts straight. Because some people will always put their bias into, or slant information a certain way, and without more than one resource for people to fact check against, they can never come to their own conclusions, and the truth just gets hidden. Fandom’s not exactly like that, but still, I think it applies to any history taking. I think it should be *required* that there be more than one source.
I personally have an issue with them coming in and duplicating something I know a lot of time and effort has gone into without so much as a nod at the original.
See, and here, I would say that the other wiki has absolutely *no* claim at *all* on being original. None.
They are not the first wiki out there. They are not the first to write out fan history, or make a resource available to a community to edit/add to that records fan history, and our quirks. I doubt they’re even the first to make a fandom wiki (because I know quite a few fandom specific wiki’s out there that can be quite extensive). They may not even have been the first to put the two together, even if they’re the only real one out there now.
Just because some takes two unoriginal ideas and puts them together (in ways that are suggested by both of the other ideas) does not give them a special standard over any that might fallow. It doesn’t give them special treatment of consideration. I’m sure at one point there was only on archive out there, only one fanzine, only one rec list, but just because there’s one, doesn’t mean there can’t, or worse, *shouldn’t* be another.
Think of how much it would stunt fandom if we were told, each fandom should only have one rec list, or if you want to rec fic, you have to acknowledge that you weren’t the first to do so?
I think of archives too. Within my fandom, SGA there are multiple fandom specific archives competing for attention. Most of them run off of the eFiction archive script. Should only one be allowed? Should all the other sites have to get their own scripts (even though eFiction is free and is available to *anyone*) to be polite, or else acknowledge that another site tried it first? That’s ridiculous.
The only difference here, is that there aren’t that many fandom wiki’s out there. But you know what? That’s probably going to change in a few years anyways. Like I said, I already know of a few other fandom wiki’s out there (even if they are fandom specific), the wiki format is free and easy to use, and a lot of fans out there are willing to put in the time.
Fanfiction.net wasn’t the first multifandom archive out there when it first came into being, it just, for whatever reason, was able to make itself more popular than the others. The same is going to happen I think to fandom wiki’s. It may be your friends that is able to make that jump ahead to being *the* fandom wiki, or it could be the OTWs, or it could be someone else who makes it. Only time will tell, but I don’t think the *second* to make a wiki should have to take any more heat than the third or fourth or five hundredth, just as I don’t think anyone really has a right to be upset when another is made. And I think fandom can only benefit from having more than one option available to them, if only to see how different people cover the same thing to get varying opinions.
Re: OTW Part 2
Re: OTW Part 3
That's one of my fears, especially since they seem to be taking on a lot of projects at the moment, of which, incidentally enough, the wiki is probably the easiest to start, since I'm assuming they're not going to re-write/start from scratch the wiki code like they are the archive and social networking codes. I must say, I hope they're not starting from scratch on the social networking code. The LJ code is open source, they could probably get farther faster if they just did a re-write of it to add a few things fans would like to see. People *like* LJ as a social network, unlike a lot of the current archive codes which don't fill their needs as much (not that a lot of fandom doesn't dislike it, but I'm assuming, perhaps erroneously, that that's because it's a social network and not so much because it's Live Journal).
There's also the fact that the longer it takes for the behind the scenes people coding to make their stuff, the more people kind of forget about the project, and it can be forgotten.
I think they're treading in dangerous waters re: legal issues. But at the same time I think a lot of their issues stem from gaps in knowledge that anyone could be expected to have.
I realize that there haven't been nearly as many C&Ds in fandom lately as their used to be, at least not to fic writers, I know vids get taken down all the time (but mostly just from places like YouTube), but I still hate the idea of how naked we are sitting here. We currently have no options but to give in if the PTB tell us to. I really wish that the legal aspect of the OTW wasn't what was non-fandom people are latching onto. So many don't seem to realize it's a *defense* fund, there in case TPTB come knocking on *our* door, not so that we can go knock on theirs.
And as bad as it is to say, even if we went out and *lost* any legal footing we had, I don't think it would kill fandom (cripple us? Definitely, but kill? Look at all the downloading that goes on, they haven't been stopped and it's *definitely* illegal) but it would make it a lot less fun.
See why I don't mind when people but in? It gives me a chance to not shut up :P
Re: OTW Part 2
Very possibly. But if this is the case, then I agree with you - rather than bitching about it, why not form alliances and make compromises (to me, this is what life is about)? But I think that fandom has always had a tendency to divide into camps (and this is not a fandom thing per se - it's a human thing) - just look at the wank that has been generated in SGA, for example, about pairings! - and it should be expected that some people will take very strong stances against any fandom endeavour ever, not just projects like OTW. This kind of diversity I respect, although I do not respect it when things get pointlessly nasty.
I agree. I think it is unfair to expect many things from OTW right away. Like any project - fandom or otherwise - things get more complex and offer more breadth and depth over time.
Re: OTW Part 2
Well, to be fair, a wiki is only as good as what it's members put into it. If it was created by a close group of due South, SPN, and HP fans, then yeah, they're going to have to work on getting other fans to do their bit.
rather than bitching about it, why not form alliances and make compromises (to me, this is what life is about)?
*nods* And to be fair, I think it's going to be impossible to accurately represent fandom. I think it's impossible to accurately represent just the SGA fandom, because fandom means something different to each person, but we can still do our best to make it as accurate as possible. I mean, they want to record our history (which I think is rather important due to the nature of the internet; what's here one day is gone the next), you can never be perfect with history, there are always biases, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't *try*. And if you're so worried about being misrepresented, then *speak*up*.
But I think that fandom has always had a tendency to divide into camps (and this is not a fandom thing per se - it's a human thing)
So true. Although you're right, it's nice when we can keep the wank out of it. It's also nice when people are actually willing to *listen* if they are engaging in a discussion. OMG, when reading the 600+ post on
I agree. I think it is unfair to expect many things from OTW right away. Like any project - fandom or otherwise - things get more complex and offer more breadth and depth over time.
Actually, I was quite surprised to see that they hope to have the archive up by this summer. That's not a lot of time to develop a huge program like an archive, especially not if they put some of the features in that people were talking about in the early days. Colour me impressed. Although, I'm slightly surprised that they're planning on opening the archive first, the academic journal last, and the wiki sometime in the "first half of 2008". I would think a wiki would be rather easy to set up in the first place. I mean, it's open source software. They might want to design a pretty skin and set up some rules, but I would have thought it could go up almost immediately. Also, it would be a good way of keeping fans interested in the project, because there's something *everyone* can work on, and they can start right away.
Re: OTW Part 2
Agreed. And this is my point!
I agree. But it is a collective (or a series of intersecting collectives), and I think some communication needs to happen to make the diverse aspects of it accessible. But I think there are always people who would rather bitch about how something is exclusive, than enter into dialogue.