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So last night I was talking with

paradise_city about incest fic. And well, it led me to a question, and I'd really like to hear what my flist has to say about it.

Fandom has a lot of different kinds of relationships portrayed, and a lot of them are outside of things that we've seen or thought we might enjoy (reading or in RL) before we came to fandom. Some of them are/were outside our moral code. Some things that we used to think we wrong, we may now think of as right, or vise versa. Some things we never thought we'd like, we now love or vise versa.

Are there things you've run across in fandom that have changed your personal moral code I mean mostly in regards to relationships, but you can include other aspects as well. Also, if you like something in fandom/fanfic, does that mean you'd accept it in RL? Or do you draw a line between fiction and reality?

I mean, there are a lot of people in fandom who read incest fic, if you came across an incestuous couple in RL, would you be ok with it? What about things other than incest? I know my first change way back in my early days of fandom was to finally see that an open relationship could work, if both partners wanted it. Or later, that threesomes, or moresomes could work. I grew up in a very traditional household, where mostly, it's expected for a girl to meet a guy, fall in love and get married, so seeing all of the other kinds of relationships out there really changed my view on these things, and moved some things off my moral codes list of "wrong".

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I've had the opposite happen, actually. As I've gotten older and my life experience influences my world view, I've started to accept more things in what I read. To use your example, I didn't used to read threesome/moresome fic because I have a very ingrained sense of OTP-ness that didn't used to allow for additions of any kind. Once I'd actually experienced a threesome for myself, I gained more understanding of how they work, at least with a casual third, so I began to read those types of stories because they ceased being threatening to my OTPness.

As you know from my incest post, RL incest is not objectionable to me as long as it's between consensual adults. It might squick me and I wouldn't want the details (the het versions) but otherwise it would be none of my business.

I do, however, have things that I like/accept in fanfic that I don't condone in real life. One of the things that I like about reading as opposed to watching is that I can run the events through my own personal filter. While I certainly enjoy watching porn when I'm in the mood for it, reading it is more enjoyable to me because it's "cleaner." In my mind, there's no mess or weirdness and any detail I don't like I can sort of skim over and not really register it as part of the experience. It's the same with other aspects of fic, in my case non-con or extreme "whump."

I don't like violence for its own sake, but I am a total sucker for hurt/comfort fic and in that context violence/non-con provides a very emotional hurt factor that can lead to even more emotional comfort, and for me, emotion in everything in fic. It's why I read it. Plus that handy filter in my head keeps the mental pictures/sounds in check enough that while I "feel" the hurt, it's kept on the surface and doesn't give me nightmares. I can't watch violence like I can read it -- that Sheppard whump vid everyone was squeeing over? I stopped watching after the first minute -- and I most certainly do NOT condone assault or rape in real life.

Then there's the stuff I like in fic that can't really happen in real life, but that's a different topic altogether.

As I've gotten older and my life experience influences my world view, I've started to accept more things in what I read.
Ha, I'm far more adventurous in my reading life than I am in RL. Especially in QaF where there wasn't a ton of fanfic, I'd read anything. Even now, I like reading kinky stuff, so will often try reading it if it appears on one of my kink comms if it's a pairing I like, with very few exceptions.

I have a very ingrained sense of OTP-ness that didn't used to allow for additions of any kind. Once I'd actually experienced a threesome for myself, I gained more understanding of how they work, at least with a casual third, so I began to read those types of stories because they ceased being threatening to my OTPness.
Hmm, that's an interesting take on threesomes, and was actually the opposite of what I was like coming in. I hadn't any problem originally with X/Y+Z fics, it was the X/Y/Z ones that confused me. I didn't see how three people could be in love equally. Now though, I think I understand, and I can never go back to reading the X/Y+Z type fics, they just don't appeal to me. I think it's because, in my fics I'm looking for an emotional connection, and threesome sex scenes are often used more as an additional kink, that often is just about porn than anything else. I won't stop reading a fic because it has a threesome in it, but if it's just a PWP I'll skip it.

One of the things that I like about reading as opposed to watching is that I can run the events through my own personal filter. While I certainly enjoy watching porn when I'm in the mood for it, reading it is more enjoyable to me because it's "cleaner."
Very true. It's a lot easier and less likely to throw you out of the mood if you just skip a few lines, as opposed to having to hit the fast forward button. Also, one thing I notice about fic, is you can read a sex scene that goes on for pages and pages and you enjoy it (if it's written well of course), but when watching porn, I get bored if the scene changes to happen often enough. I mean, 10 minutes of a genitals close up as they pound into each other gets a little boring for me.

It's the same with other aspects of fic, in my case non-con or extreme "whump."
Yeah, non-con was the one thing on my list of "things I enjoy reading in fandom, that I can't like in RL" although,

tacky_tramp reminded me of chan, which I've read once or twice.

As for whump and H/C... well, that's a kink that's a bit hard to tranfer to RL. I mean, if you were in an accident, or something happened like an earthquake, when you first saw your SO, would you not enjoy seeing them? Would you not want to jump them as soon as you could to make sure they are ok? I mean, it's not a situation you'd seek out, but I think the after effects are still applicable to RL, you just wouldn't seek it out. Even if in the future you don't look back on that horrible time as a happy though, I'm sure you'd remember the rush of emotions that went with the relief of finding out that you guys were ok.
And I'm really not sure how someone could be a H/C junkie in RL, unless it's through BDSM or something. I suppose you could look for pick ups at the local sexual assault centre... which ok, yeah, that would be wrong.

Then there's the stuff I like in fic that can't really happen in real life
Would *you* approve of mpreg and ass babies in RL? :P

Chan is one of those grey areas for me. It mostly depends on how young the character is. I know how I felt sexually as a late teen and what I did. My absolute lowest age for penetrative sex is 16. I can do 14 for mutual masturbation and oral, but only if I really like the pairing and if the other participant is also a teenager, because that's seriously skirting the line for me and anything younger I just can't do. I quit reading Piers Anthony's novels for that reason.

Mpreg squicks me the HELL OUT. It just really, really does. I can hardly handle babies coming out of women. :P

My thing is sentient nonhuman sex. Sex with aliens or human hybrids or highly evolved AIs. Well, I reckon the last one might be possible in RL someday, but anyway. Technically, sex with aliens happens whenever someone has sex with Teyla or Ronon, but I'm talking about nonhuman physiognomy. I can eat Bug!John fics for breakfast, and that one fic where John was a centaur? *rowr* This is not to be confused with bestiality, since animals are not sentient and can't give consent, and therefore goes on my squick list. And then there's wingfic, which I always thought sounded really stupid until I got into SGA, and now the thought of John having wings is just really, really hot.

only if I really like the pairing and if the other participant is also a teenager, because that's seriously skirting the line for me and anything younger I just can't do.
Yeah, see, the only time I really ran into chan was when I was in the Harry Potter fandom, because I slashed Harry and Snape, so it could be a lot more squick worthy over there.
But you're right, there's nothing wrong with teenagers having sex with each other.
I certainly wouldn't put my chan squick level even with say, the Australian government.

Mpreg squicks me the HELL OUT. It just really, really does.
Ah ha ha ha. *pulls out mpreg icon*
I'll admit to reading it in certain fandoms. In QaF, it was just too stupid to take, but at least in SGA they have weird alien technology to lend some plausibility.

I can eat Bug!John fics for breakfast, and that one fic where John was a centaur? *rowr*
I love Bug!John. It's so hot.
Also, do you mean the centaur fics by James Walkswithwind, or the one by Leah? Or something else entirely?

And then there's wingfic, which I always thought sounded really stupid until I got into SGA, and now the thought of John having wings is just really, really hot.
Ha, my desktop background is McShep, where John has wings. :P

Even with the technology, mpreg is just too weird for me. Maybe it has a lot to do with my disinterest with babies in general. I don't see the point of going so far as to make a man pregnant just to work a baby into the story. It just seems like needless reaching to me, and it makes me very :| The ONLY mpreg I've been able to handle was on Alien Nation, but then George is an alien so it isn't quite the same thing. Now, there was a person who attempted to write a Brian/Justin mpreg AU by making Justin a Newcomer, but it was painfully obvious that she'd never watched Alien Nation because she didn't get a single detail right.

My love for bug!John knows no bounds. There was a fic someone wrote, I think it was either sardonicsmiley or lavvyan, where John kept getting switched out every day with a John from another universe, and the first switch-out was bug!John, and oh my word that bit of the story just kept breaking my heart and putting it back just to break it again. I wish she'd write a full story in that verse. It would be awesome.

And I read Leah's centaur fic. Where is this other centaur fic of which you speak?? *makes grabby hands*

Even with the technology, mpreg is just too weird for me.
Ha, have you ever read Fuzzy Duck Smell, it's sort of mocking mpregs. Rodney has ass eggs, which turn out to hatch into ducks. Just normal ducks. They go and live on the mainland (the ducks, not John and Rodney).

There was a fic someone wrote
I think I may have that fic open in one of to to-read tabs....

And I read Leah's centaur fic. Where is this other centaur fic of which you speak?? *makes grabby hands*
Leah, based her fic off of James Walkswithwind's series. The whole series is super long, and spans many fandoms, but you don't have to read it to read the SGA parts.

She based her fic off of James' Many Faces fics (parts 1 and 2) but didn't know the centaur bit (and many of the other AU bits) were based off another fic; The Centaur Series (which ends up being McShep, but also has Sheppard/Zelenka and Sheppard/Beckett)
1: There's No Place Like a Mythological City To Call Home
2: Centaur Lullabye
3: Tetrameter
4: The Clock Struck One
5: Untitled Snippet
6: Thundering of Heartbeats
7: (Not So) Ordinary Gaits

Beyond that, I'd actually rec *all* of James' fic. She's one of the first author's I read in the fandom, and was one of the author's that was my transition from McBeck to McShep, she has a mix of both. And her Alone In Your Mind series would make my top 5 list no problem. It's one of those threesome fics that just *works*.

Now, I'm totally going to have to reread the centaur fics. :P

Thinking about it, my personal moral code or kinks/squicks have never been (significantly) changed due to fandom. I've been very open in regards to sexual practices for as long as I can remember, so I never had many real squicks to begin with. Those I do have - scat, bestiality, non-con, mostly - have not changed.

I do draw lines between real life and fiction mostly when it comes to consent, not so much to practices. Fiction, in my opinion, is fiction for a reason - I fully support everyone's right to write (and read) what they want, even if it's something I personally find objectable. So as long as they warn properly, allowing someone who doesn't want to read something a way to avoid it, anything goes. Obviously that is not the case in real life (including photography or movies, i.e. things actually involving living beings). To stick with the example of incest, I don't mind it in fiction, but it's a more difficult issue in real life. I don't believe it's inherently bad if blood relatives are romantically involved/ sleep with each other (strange, yes, but whatever). However, there is such a huge problem with (full and informed) consent in real life incest, since family relationships (especially if they're cross-gen) have such inherent power dynamics, that I wouldn't approve of them under many circumstances.

Dub-con is similar, it can be hot in fiction, but is an absolute no-no in real life.

... I'm trying to formulate a good conclusion to my thoughts, but yeah, that's pretty much it. :)

Hmm, I wonder if maybe I give fandom more credit than I should. As a young teenager, I never really questioned my morals, they were the same as my families. Then I went to university, and discovered fandom and philosophy and suddenly I was questioning everything, and reexamining a lot of things I had taken for granted before.

Although, I still find my way of thinking changing due to fandom. I mean, it's an international community of mostly liberal minded women, I'm constantly being shown different perspectives on things (in general) and being forced to rethink some of the assumptions I had previously held.

Especially in the Stargate Atlantis fandom. I mean, in QaF, if there was going to be wank, it was about the Brian/Michael shippers were delusional, or those spoiler hos/virgins, ruinin' all the fun! SGA, on the other hand, feels their wank should be on deep moral issues. Just the other day I was saying to

paradise_city "Oh, I miss the fandoms when the wank wasn't about anything that matters. When it didn't make you want to re-examine your life for things that might not even apply." :P

never had many real squicks to begin with. Those I do have - scat, bestiality, non-con, mostly - have not changed.
Oh scat, misunderstood by so many. Actually, I'm a pretty kinky reader, but scat is one of those kinks I just was never able to come to like. I can handle rimming (although, it grossed me out for the first little while) and to some extent even water sports, but scat is just too far for me.

However, there is such a huge problem with (full and informed) consent in real life incest, since family relationships (especially if they're cross-gen) have such inherent power dynamics, that I wouldn't approve of them under many circumstances.
Yeah, mostly when I think of incest, I think of the same generation. Also, even if they were both adults and consenting, I'd probably have a lot more problems with it if it were a parent child thing instead of siblings or cousins.
For all that I read Snape/Harry in HP, that there was a decent gap between Brian and Justin, and that I'm more attracted to older people, than those my own, I'm still squicked by huge age differences. I mean, I have a friend right now, who's a few months younger than I am (22), who's dating a man almost 60. It's just, even if they have a lot in common, there are so many other issues. Like, he has children from a previous marriage, he probably doesn't have more than 20-30 years left to live, and there's no guaranteer that those years will be healthy coherent ones.

So yes, rambly rambly no conclusion from me either :P

Nope. My moral code has been, for quite a while, "honesty and consent is good, deceit and coercion is wrong." Consensual adult incest weirds me out, but I really don't consider it any of my business. Some of my fictional kinks, though, I do consider wrong IRL, like chan and dubcon.

I think growing up in a strongly Roman Catholic household, I would listen to people pass judgment on others, so it was my gut reaction to do the same. I've mostly switched over now to the "it's none of my business" train of thought.

And yeah, non-con was the only kink I enjoy in fandom that I could think of that I don't approve of in RL, but now that you mention it, I have read some chan in the past, and I definitely can't be ok with that in RL either.

Since we talked about this already I don't know if you want more of my thoughts, but I'll give them anyway.

I definitely draw a line between things that are okay in fic and things that are okay outside of fic (mostly age and non-con), but it all depends on the people and circumstances involved so my judgments aren't really generalizable across fic and non-fic.

In terms of age, I know I mentioned that I don't really have a problem with underage sex, but it depends on the individual. I know what my peers and I were getting up when we were 12 or 13 and while some people came away scarred from the experiences, I think the majority of us were much more cognizant about what were getting into than people gave us credit for and are no worse for the wear. So while I might not have an issue with Person A having sex at 14 because I know person A and think he or she can handle it, I'm probably not okay with Harry having sex with Snape because Harry's never been a sexual person and probably can't handle it.

As far as non-con goes, I think there are degrees in fic (a fic where Person A is in a relationship with Person B and while Person B may get a little demanding or take liberties, Person A never gives an indication he or she wants Person B to stop versus Person A being full-on raped by a sadistic torturer) and the lighter stuff can be okay with me. Outside fic, however, I am staunchly anti-non-con in any form. We were talking about this in one of my classes the other day (I can't recall if I talked about this with you or not, so my apologies if it's a repeat), and our discussion of what does and does not constitute rape included things like Person A having sex with Person B even when Person A doesn't want to just to keep the peace of make Person B happy at his or her own expense. I think anyone being harassed for sex after saying no, no matter how mildly, is intolerable. But John taking liberties with Rodney is probably okay, because I don't think John is likely to be a rapist nor Rodney likely to be a rape victim.

So I guess the short answer is that my morality doesn't necessarily differ between fic and non-fic, but the caveats do. It all depends on circumstances and individuals.

Great post. I've really enjoyed reading others' thought on this. :)

I definitely draw a line between things that are okay in fic and things that are okay outside of fic (mostly age and non-con)
Yeah, non-con was the main point I forgot while writing this post up. Because I often find it sexy in fic (esp. Dub-con) I can't find it acceptable in RL.

rape included things like Person A having sex with Person B even when Person A doesn't want to just to keep the peace of make Person B happy at his or her own expense. I think anyone being harassed for sex after saying no, no matter how mildly, is intolerable.
See, I don't think I could ever say in RL that what you described is rape. Sure, if that's all your sex life is, or if your doing it, because when things aren't peaceful your household is in a really bad place, but overall?
There's this one SGA fic out there, where John is mooning over Rodney, and thinks he's going to find some girl and get married, and when thinking about it, John thinks something along the line of "Rodney deserves a wife that will have sex with him, even if she's beat and would really rather sleep" and then later switches it so it's Rodney having sex even though he's beat and would rather sleep, and I can't help but find that thought sweet. I'm sure most people in the world have had sex with their partner, even though they'd rather not because it would make their partner happy.
Also, saying things like above, well, it kind of cheapens the word rape when it can be applied to most people out there. Trying to say that "Oh honey, not tonight, well, ok" is equal to someone who has been brutally raped against their will is not right. Were you around for the radical feminist wank? Amoung other things, the feminist was saying exactly that, and someone on my flist made a really angry post. She had been raped repeatedly by a family member when she was 8, it's not fair to her and others to apply the same word and all that it means to "I just don't feel like it tonight, well fine, I guess a quick one". I'm not saying it's never rape, but I certainly don't think you can make the generalization that it is.

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Morality in fic

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