Numb3rs

[paraka]

Ok, first off, I want to wish geeklite a belated birthday. I so meant to make this post last night, but I fell asleep. :-/ I hope you had an amazing day!

Next, I know I'm totally late on this, but I want to talk about Colby and the Janus list.


Gah! This was such an amazing episode! When I finished watching that episode I realized that that was one of the most effective season finales I've ever seen. I can only think of one other season finale like it (The Buffy one where she killed Angel). It wasn't quite a cliffhanger, because the problem was resolved, but it just left everything so broken. I can't wait until the new season starts. *whines* I'm going to be spending waaayyyy too much time thinking about this ep. Also I was really impressed by this ender, because the finale for season 2 sucked so, so much. I'm glad they were able o make this one much more interesting.

The thing is, not for one minute did I actually believe Colby's been a spy for 2 years. I have a feeling he was probably pulled in by the Americans when they discovered Dwayne, because:
1) What are the chances they both happened to work for the Chinese. I mean of all the governments out there... It would be more likely if it were a Middle Eastern government, because at least they both fought over there, but the Chinese? I mean we know how Dwayne got involved, but Colby? His only connection is Dwayne.

2) If Colby was a spy on the same side as Dwayne they had some mighty weird private conversations. And Colby's must be a pretty good actor to look so surprised and hurt over Dwayne being a traitor. I mean honestly, if they both knew (and if it were true I can't believe they wouldn't at the very least have suspicions) they might not have come right out with their secret traitor hand shake, but I think they probably would have spoken in a few more double entendre's.

3) If Dwayne *knew* that Colby was a turn coat, I think he would have turned him in when Colby cornered him. He was so upset and angry when it happened I can't believe he wouldn't lash out. I mean, I know he knew by this episode, but I bet he probably learned while imprisoned and decided to sit on it, because he was calmer and already caught, he knew he'd have to use that info to his advantage, but I doubt he'd be thinking that clearly when he was first arrested.


Edit: Obviously there are spoilers in this post and the comments for Janus List. In the comments though we now have some vague cast spoilers for season 4 (of both Numb3rs and SGA). Please don't spoil me people. I can't handle it! (Ok, I *can* but it'll piss me off). If you *are* looking for spoilers for season 4 there's a link in the comments to somewhere where you can find more info.

Comments

[kukalaka.livejournal.com]

I realized that that was one of the most effective season finales I've ever seen
I totally agree. I sat there with my mouth open, because I just couldn't believe what I saw. Colby a traitor? That can't be true. There are only little to no chances that both were working for the Chinese. There's definitely more behind this whole thing. Looking forward to the new season to see what it is.
David looked so crushed when he found out. Poor him.

[paraka]

I didn't believe for a single moment that Colby was a traitor (he confessed waayyyy to quickly. Think of that other guy that hesitated even though he knew people were going to *die* if he didn't say anything), what surprised me was the amount of people on this one list I'm on who *did* believe it.

Another thing, now that I think about it, is that I'm pretty sure Colby knew he was going to be caught soon because he kept making all these statements like "Don't you trust me?" and the family thing he said to David, about how all he had was serving his country. I don't think he was saying those things to try and cover, I think he was saying those things to remind them, and so that they'd really think about is character when the shit hit the fan. So that they'd remember where his true loyalties lay.

[kukalaka.livejournal.com]

I didn't believe for a single moment that Colby was a traitor
I only did believe it in the very first second, because I was in shock. But it's true, he confessed too quickly. And all the things he said, especially when talking with Megan... And you could see through all the episodes that he likes being part of the team.

[paraka]

Yeah, I don't think he wants to be in that position. Maybe there was a lot of pressure put on him ("You're the only one who can do it!") or he let his patriotism sway him (as he said, serving his country was really the only thought he had when looking for a career, it was bred into him). The thing is, Colby has always come across as an honest guy, I'd imagine that all this cloak and dagger stuff would be hard on him.

[kukalaka.livejournal.com]

I can imagine that both might be true.

Colby has always come across as an honest guy
I thought so too.

[paraka]

He really, really has. I mean all of the other characters have some secrets and whatnot, but not Colby before now. I mean the Eppes brothers have their whole past and troubled relationship. Megan has always come off, to me at least, as having more going on with her than what we see on the surface. She's a very private person. And we know that there's something going on with her and her Dad. David, Don originally had trouble accepting him, because he was sent in to keep an eye on Don (he was from another department or something like that) and we know that his childhood wasn't the easiest. We got glimpses in that ep with the almost 30 year old posing as a student from the ghetto, or that ep with all the gangster violence, or the school shooting ep.

But Colby, other than a few mentions of Afganistan...I suppose there was that ep where he talked about killing people with "friendly fire" (I *hate* that term :S) and the Dwayne ep. But Colby has always been forthcoming with his feelings, emotions and hesitancies, that it's really hard to imagine that he'd be able to successfully be a spy for China.

God, I think I've hit the point of over-analyzing.

[paraka]

Crap, I pressed post by accident.

David looked so crushed when he found out. Poor him.
OMG he was *crying*! Are you a slasher? Because I've slashed David and Colby for a while now, but that moment just *made* them for me. Oh god. I think it's going to take David a while to get over this, even if/when it comes to light that Colby was never a traitor. I think David will feel betrayed regardless because Colby never confided in him.

[kukalaka.livejournal.com]

No, I'm not really a slasher, but if I were I definitely would slash David/Colby. They're just great together. And I agree, it'll take some time till David get over it. But Don probably too. More therapy sessions to come. ;D

[paraka]

Oh god, probably my favourite David/Colby moment before this ep was when they were at that Chinese stripper joint and Colby says something like "God, we're the only white guys here" and David's liek " o_O; ...yeah...." They just play off each other so well.

Don on the other hand. I mean Don's my favourite, he's really the guy I watch the show for, but so often he'll surprise me. Most of the time he's this great hard working guy who loves his job and family, but other times? He's a complete ass hole. All of his actions toward Colby this episode seemed so wrong to me. I mean he didn't hesitate to think of Colby as a traitor. And at the end of the show, not one word about Colby or his deception, instead the Eps were all upset about this agent that time will forget? That doesn't fly with me. My presonal theory at the moment (I have a lot of them if you didn't notice? :P Me? Spending too much time thinking about this episode? No!) is that Don knew about Colby being a double agent, and he knows that Colby's on the good side. That's why he was acting like an ass hole, that's why he wasn't upset. Although I must admit, of all my theories, in my heart I have a feeling that this is wrong, because the writers have written Don as an asshole before with no troubles. I really *want* this theory to be true though...

[kukalaka.livejournal.com]

that Don knew about Colby being a double agent
You know what? I had that thought too in the very beginning, when I thought about the first episode with Dwayne. Butbthen I abandoned it for some reason. My theory for Don being an asshole was that he was mad at himself for trusting Colby after the first Dwayne incident. But I like the first theory better.

and Colby says something like "God, we're the only white guys here" and David's liek " o_O; ...yeah...."
That scene was so great. But I also love their little jokes that always Colby ends up chasing after the suspects. :D

[paraka]

I could see it going either way. It just gets me sometimes when the writers aren't consistent with Don's character, because there have been a few times where Don has done something that makes me not like him, and then he goes back to being nice Don, and the just don't seem to mesh in my mind. Runon sentence much? :P

And Colby is so great. I find it funny that he was the one doing all the running across town in that Don-at-the-psychiatrist ep when he's the one always complaining about running. Did he in one ep tell a perp that he'd shoot him in the back, and then once he got cuffs on him he goes, "I wouldn't realle have, I just didn't feel like running today" :P Oh Colby. I think I'm going to have to "force" myself to sit through all the eps with Colby in it, and come up with a list of Best Colby Lines. :D

[munchkinofdoom.livejournal.com]

spikedluv and I have been batting theories back and forth for the last 5 days or so, and are still refining our positions... *g*

Have a look here, which is the main thread where we've really got going: http://spikedluv.livejournal.com/323071.html?thread=4224511#t4224511

I'm still of the opinion that Colby was aimed purposely at Dwayne Carter a long time ago, and has been reeling him in ever since. Then Ashby wandered onto the scene and everything went to hell...

spikedluv has a few links to season 4 spoilers in the thread too. I'd love to hear more of your thoughts! As long as TPTB don't do an SGA and bite off far more than they can chew, season 4 should be veddy veddy interesting... *g*

[paraka]

Hmm, I'll have to go check that thread out (but not the spoilers, I'm a total spoiler avoider).

I'm still of the opinion that Colby was aimed purposely at Dwayne Carter a long time ago, and has been reeling him in ever since. Then Ashby wandered onto the scene and everything went to hell...
I'm not sure. I think they probably planted Colby after they caught Dwayne. And I kind of got the impression (looking back) that for most of the episode Colby knew he was going to be caught. He kept making statements about trust and loyalty. I don't think he was saying those things to hide what he was doing, I think he was doing it to try and remind his friends of his personality and loyalties so that when the shit *did* hit the fan they'd could think back and realize that this traitor idea is totally out of his character. He also acted kind of sloppily. I mean running off with the girl? And he confessed waayyy to quickly. I mean, Don was acting like a hard ass, but I think if he kept professing his innocence they'd all have more time for their doubts to surface. I mean other than Ashby, and the mistake made with Dwayne there was nothing to tie Colby in with the Chinese. And seriously, the mistake with Dwayne can easily be explained by misplaced loyalty, and Ashby was going to blow up a bridge, can he really be trusted? No Colby confessed quickly because he wanted/needed/was ordered to be caught.

Maybe Ashby was in on it and helped Colby get caught so he could go under cover, or maybe Ashby forced Colby's (and his PTB) hand and made him come out to stay under, I'm not sure.

As long as TPTB don't do an SGA and bite off far more than they can chew, season 4 should be veddy veddy interesting... *g*
I actually have a lot of trust that the Numb3rs PTB will be able to handle this. SGA is a show built on arcs. They *have* to have an ongoing bad guy, it just doesn't work if they have a new one each episode. Numb3rs on the other hand is built perfectly to handle a new bad guy every episode. I have a feeling that the Colby-as-a-spy story line isn't going to be a *direct* story arc for the whole season. By direct I mean, I'm guessing that they're going to tie the lose ends up in 2 or 3 episodes. Maybe they'll have a few eps that don't focus on Colby but show snap shots of him and his situation, or maybe the season opener will deal with it right away, but I have a feeling that when they do *really* address it, it won't take that long to wrap up.

Now I say it won't be a *direct* story arc for the whole season, but I have a feeling (at least if the Numb3rs writers play it right) it'll keep coming up all season, but it'll be more from an emotional standpoint. Like I don't think David will forgive Colby right away. Did you see how upset he was? Even if/when it comes out that Colby's been on the good side the whole time, I think David is going to be upset that Colby didn't trust him enough to tell him. Even if logically he knows Colby couldn't have, they'll still be an emotional side of him that can't handle it (why yes I *am* a Colby/David shipper :P). And Don already had some trust issues going on with Colby, I think he'll probably be wondering just who Colby's working for, who he's loyal to, who's orders will he follow. And Megan? Well it seems she came back from her other mission really burned out. She may not be able to handle the thought of such duplicitous actions going on in her team, her little work family.

Anyways, I'm going to stop here. This is the danger of saying "I'd love to hear more of your thoughts!" :P

[kukalaka.livejournal.com]

but not the spoilers, I'm a total spoiler avoider
I normally stay spoiler-free too, but I had to go there and read the cast spoilers.

[paraka]

Ok, I will admit, I read the cast spoilers. Mostly because on one of the lists I'm on people talked about them and didn't mark it as spoilers, but I'm ok with knowing that. I would probably be pissed if it was bad news, but as it is, I'm perfectly happy knowing them now. SGA cast spoilers on the other hand pissed me off to no end. :S

[kukalaka.livejournal.com]

I didn't read any SGA cast spoilers. But at some point in season 3 I wished I had read them. But I don't know anything for season 4 yet.

[paraka]

Oh boy, I'm so glad you told me that, and that I've been trying to play it safe with spoilers, because I probably would have blurted something out. I'm really wishing I had been able to remain spoiler free for season 4 of SGA, but I'm on a couple yahoo lists and people just don't consider casting spoilers. Have you seen all of season 3 yet? Because, gah, I want to use an example but really don't want to spoil you.

[munchkinofdoom.livejournal.com]

This is the danger of saying "I'd love to hear more of your thoughts!" :P

Don't worry about me! I'm up to the challenge... *g*

So, you've seen the casting spoilers (which I will not mention here) but no story spoilers. Same as me. I love to speculate, but want no confirmation if I'm right or wrong! I want to enjoy it for myself when the episodes start! That goes for Numb3rs and SGA.

I agree with you that Colby was sicced onto Dwayne, but I'm not sure I agree with when. Mainly because I'm certain that Ashby has been working on the Janus List for some time, and that Colby was already on that list. Where I probably differ from most fans at present, is that I think the Janus List is not a list of traitors, but a list of deep cover agents pretending to be traitors in order to influence enemy spy networks.

(cut and pasted from my comment in spikedluv's journal)
Ashby (calls to Don): If you find the Janus list, trust it!

McClair: (snip the Charlie references) A Janus list is not some random collection of spies, it’s a carefully selected group of pressure points, designed to cripple intelligence operations.

I think that everything went to hell when Ashby, who was compiling the Janus List as a sort of narcissistic 'neener neener' to the intelligence community for writing him off, suddenly realised that the list he was compiling, of deep cover agents put in place to direct and control information going to foreign powers, had a rogue on it: Dwayne Carter. And Dwayne realised he had been discovered. So the episode became a battle of wills between Dwayne and Ashby, with Don, Charlie and Colby caught in the middle.

Oh, bugger it! I'm just going to cut and paste the gist of my argument here, and you can regret opening this conversation! *g*

(extract from my latest comment to spikedluv)
So, where am I at present? The list is a who's who of agents other countries 'think' they own. Ashby compiled the list as a final 'neener neener' to the intelligence community who had all written him off. I'm not speculating in depth as to whether Ashby intended to do anything treasonous with the list (but am not writing it off, if Megan's opinion of him as a psychopath is correct, although I'm leaning more toward sociapath). At some stage, while buying and selling information with Carter, Ashby came to the realisation that Carter was compromised (actually, Ashby was probably surprised Carter hadn't already been caught!). Carter, on the other hand, realised how close Ashby was to having a working Janus List, and that scrutiny of all the names on the list (by anyone) could expose his double-dealing. But he couldn't just kill Ashby and hope the list would never surface. He had to flush it out in a way that only he could find it. Or ensure that no-one found it. He knew that a slow death for Ashby would prompt him (in his narcissistic way) to go out with a bang, and hopefully point the way toward the Janus List while he was at it. Which is exactly what Ashby did... *g*
Now, of course, with Don and Charlie on the case, Carter had to sit back, watch what they did (his military prison leaked like a sieve) and hopefully have his people there to pick up the pieces... with each different person in the loop having a different story. Colby thought they were there to kill Naomi, the killers thought they were there to kill the FBI agents watching her, and Colby dying would have suited Carter's purposes, as he wouldn't be around to argue that he was actually a mole against the Chinese, and the US intelligence community would ensure that Carter would disappear (as was happening when Don arrived to arrest him) so everything would have been cleaned up nicely. Carter would have a new, much nicer cell and no death sentence hanging over him as long as he talked, and Don, David, Megan and Charlie would be left to pick up the pieces, thinking one of their own had turned. Or had never been theirs to begin with.

But the whole thing went to hell in a handbasket because of two things that the two minds conspiring against each other - Carter and Ashby - could not control. Ashby not dying on the bridge, and Colby not dying in the shootout at the safe house.

pt 2 *g*

[munchkinofdoom.livejournal.com]

I also agree with you that they are likely to wrap up the arc in one to two episodes, and then touch upon the fallout here and there throughout the season, as they have been doing with Don and his therapy.

For now, at least, I trust TPTB to at least make a good stab at pulling the story off. They did such a good job of shocking the hell out of us in the last couple of episodes - especially with the foreshadowing of trust issues - that they'd really have to suck big time not to pull it off in season 4. Or at least that is what I'm telling myself! *g*

Re: pt 2 *g*

[paraka]

Ok, I've been thinking a lot about what you said in part one, but I'm still processing it, so I'll reply to it later, but for now...

I also agree with you that they are likely to wrap up the arc in one to two episodes, and then touch upon the fallout here and there throughout the season, as they have been doing with Don and his therapy.
I hope so, they've been handling Don's therapy *so*well*. I mean a lot of shows would make an entire episode just about the therapy, or let the therapy overwhelm, but the writers have done a great job of having it there, but not having it overwhelm, not forgetting to still have the crime aspect.

For now, at least, I trust TPTB to at least make a good stab at pulling the story off. They did such a good job of shocking the hell out of us in the last couple of episodes - especially with the foreshadowing of trust issues - that they'd really have to suck big time not to pull it off in season 4. Or at least that is what I'm telling myself! *g*
*hearts the Numb3rs writers*
I do actually trust them to pull it off. Like I said, I probably wouldn't trust the SGA writers, but with very few exceptions, the Numb3rs writers don't disappoint.

Numbers

[paradise-city.livejournal.com]

That's a great take on Colby, that he was doing his best to remind the team what kind of guy he really is. And like you, I was surprised they bought it all so quickly. I can't even begin to take a stab at how long this has been going on, etc. because I'm horrible with remembering canon, but they really jumped on the bandwagon far too quickly. Colby's always gone out of his way to see the best in his teammates, and I'd love to see the fallout of them not doing the same for him.

Re: Numbers

[paraka]

Colby's always gone out of his way to see the best in his teammates, and I'd love to see the fallout of them not doing the same for him.
Ohh, I really can't wait until we get to see the truth come out (and really, there's nothing anyone could say at this point to make me believe that Colby's really bad, so we're going to assume the truth coming out is that he's not a traitor). I can see people being pissed all around. Colby because they would so easily believe he could do this, David because he felt so hurt and betrayed, and really couldn't Colby have told him? Don worried because Colby was following someone else's orders, and even if he isn't a traitor, can Don trust him to do what's best for the team from now one? Megan just because she's frustrated and angry as all hell at the moment, she doesn't have a Larry here to comfort her, and Colby will just be yet another thing she has to work through.

That's a great take on Colby, that he was doing his best to remind the team what kind of guy he really is.
The thing is, Colby has always come across as an honest guy to me. I mean, even when he was going through emotional problems (like when he told David about that friendly fire incident in Afgantistan) he doesn't really hold it in, he wears his heart on his sleeve, he talks about it. Colby doesn't need a psychiatrist like Don, because I think he's pretty good and going to those around him for help (ok, I may be extrapolating an awful lot from a little bit of canon, but that just the kind of feeling I got off the guy).

He's too honest a guy to say those thing, so often even, when he knows they're not true. And he pulled the hurt looks off too, hurt that Don didn't trust him, frustration with Dwayne when they met at the prision. I also think that it's killing him a bit inside having to keep this kind of stuff from his friends. I really don't see Colby as a cloak and dagger kind of guy.

I was surprised they bought it all so quickly.
Yeah, there could have at least been some shocked "No!"s or "I don't believe it!"s. But instead Don looked like, "I knew it!" and David went straight to betrayed (I don't really remember Megan's initial reaction).

I can't even begin to take a stab at how long this has been going on, etc. because I'm horrible with remembering canon
Oh me too. I've just been talking about this a lot lately. Trust me when I first started off it was stuff like, "And that army buddy who worked for te Chinese" and "You know that ep with the thingy" :P

It's funny, because I love SGA, but people are constantly going "Remember that time in that ep when they did that?" and I'm all o_O having no idea what they're talking about. And with Numb3rs I hadn't thought I had paid that close attention to Colby, but I seem to be remembering every single conversation he ever had. I think it's because I've seem most of the Numb3rs eps twice, but I've only seen most of SGA once, and instead have my memories clouded by a ton of fanon....

[maekala.livejournal.com]

Oh, the season ender killed me. But it definitely gave the show that awesome boost in excitement. I don't think I've been on the edge of my seat as much in a long time.

Also, I noticed you're shipping David/Colby...if you haven't already read them, you should totally go check out the two David/Colby (I think it's only two right now) fics that callmeang has written. She also has some good Charlie/Colby fics up (one of which I beta'ed, so this is a minor plug). Anyway, I think you'll like. They should all be posted at numb3rs_slash if you don't want to check her journal. I'm pretty sure she's posted spoilers on her LJ.

[paraka]

Oh, the season ender killed me. But it definitely gave the show that awesome boost in excitement. I don't think I've been on the edge of my seat as much in a long time.
Oh definitely. Like I said, in my top 2 of best season enders I've ever seen. It was amazing.

I'll definitely check out those fics. Also, I promise I haven't forgotten about you, I'm working on the e-mail, but things have been really slow since my computer has been really, really stupid, and rl has been topsey turvy.

[maekala.livejournal.com]

Also, I promise I haven't forgotten about you, I'm working on the e-mail, but things have been really slow since my computer has been really, really stupid, and rl has been topsey turvy.

Oh, it's all good. As you can tell, life has been crazy for me as well, so I'm behind getting the other one responded to.